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U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

bloomberg.com

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Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#61

Post by Simulacra »

pmachinery wrote: post #44

> it’s easy to forget that many oppressed and subjugated people around the world still look to the U.S. with hope It's easy to forget because it's just a fairy tale Americans tell themselves. Oppressed and subjugated people flee to the nearest country that isn't the one oppressing them. Often that country is in fact China (from North Korea). This article doesn't even pretend to be talking about saving oppressed and s…

I'm curious, do you think the Chinese people have been so brainwashed that they are incapable of considering the U.S. as a beacon of hope? The only interest America has in Hong Kong is purely financial. We've not done much to support democracy and freedom over there.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#62

Post by mamborambo »

bspammer wrote: post #9

What would be the diplomatic consequences of this? I'm assuming China would be very unhappy with any country making this offer to Hong Kongers, but perhaps I'm wrong and they'd prefer for dissidents to leave.

Somehow I don't think China care much about the people, so long as they can lay their hands on the wealth. The way they trample over the HK system, most of the elites and international connections will evaporate in a matter of months, and all they will have by the end of the year would be the crumbs of society.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#63

Post by sjg007 »

rchaud wrote: post #51
pmachinery wrote: post #44

> it’s easy to forget that many oppressed and subjugated people around the world still look to the U.S. with hope It's easy to forget because it's just a fairy tale Americans tell themselves. Oppressed and subjugated people flee to the nearest country that isn't the one oppressing them. Often that country is in fact China (from North Korea). This article doesn't even pretend to be talking about saving oppressed and s…

Rich Western countries will for the most part, only accept the best and the brightest, refugee or not. People who under different circumstances, would still have been able to jump through the various hurdles to immigrate legally. I read plenty of stories about the million plus people that have been afforded entry to Europe in the last few years. Yet there is very little in the English-language press about the million…

Best and brightest are wanted but that overlooks the millions of immigrants who are not so by qualifications and yet they still achieve success. So having these prequalifications is kind of silly. America's construction boom is fueled by immigrants as is most of Los Angeles restaurant scene.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#64

Post by pmachinery »

Simulacra wrote: post #61
pmachinery wrote: post #44

> it’s easy to forget that many oppressed and subjugated people around the world still look to the U.S. with hope It's easy to forget because it's just a fairy tale Americans tell themselves. Oppressed and subjugated people flee to the nearest country that isn't the one oppressing them. Often that country is in fact China (from North Korea). This article doesn't even pretend to be talking about saving oppressed and s…

I'm curious, do you think the Chinese people have been so brainwashed that they are incapable of considering the U.S. as a beacon of hope? The only interest America has in Hong Kong is purely financial. We've not done much to support democracy and freedom over there.

> I'm curious, do you think the Chinese people have been so brainwashed that they are incapable of considering the U.S. as a beacon of hope?

I think Chinese people who think of free countries where they'd rather be are more likely to have in mind Taiwan, Singapore, South Korea, Japan or other Asian countries than the US.

> The only interest America has in Hong Kong is purely financial.

Yes. This article doesn't even refer to the people of Hong Kong as people, simply as assets for the US to exploit.

> We've not done much to support democracy and freedom over there.

I think there's a tendency for people to forget, or simply disregard, that Hong Kong is part of China. Should China be doing more to support democracy and freedom (independence) in, say, Puerto Rico?

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#65

Post by gambiting »

DamnYuppie wrote: post #55
gambiting wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a citizen of a country that was invaded and taken apart multiple times in the last 200 years(Poland) - no, that's a very noble idea, but in practice that doesn't always work. Poland has survived in the shape that it is mostly because people were able to move and cultivate the Polish language, culture and heritage elsewhere temporarily. We even had a government-in-exile for a while in London, at the time when Polan…

The point that your argument misses is that it was fighting the invariably resolved the issues and paved the way for the exiled governments and people to return.

Yes, I guess it does. I guess the overall point is that the time was still needed though - Poland couldn't have fought for its independence at the time(there were 3 uprisings and the all failed) so maybe the situation is similar - Hong Kong citizens have no chance against China right now - but in 20 years the situation may be different. Of course it's impossible to predict.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#66

Post by simonblack »

Simulacra wrote: post #59

The United States should take the radical position that Taiwan is a country separate from China. Especially now, why is this not getting more attention?

China should take the radical position that Hawaii is a country separate from the US. Especially now, why is this not getting more attention?

Same logic as yours. But even more relevant as Taiwan (Formosa) was historically part of China, whereas Hawaii was a separate kingdom annexed by force by the US.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#67

Post by dirtyid »

bspammer wrote: post #9

What would be the diplomatic consequences of this? I'm assuming China would be very unhappy with any country making this offer to Hong Kongers, but perhaps I'm wrong and they'd prefer for dissidents to leave.

China is trying control overseas diaspora. Especially dissident voices. Exporting anti-state voices outside Chinese reach has long term consequences. A lot of anti-China sentiment is driven by previously persecuted groups that can be easily instrumentalized by western powers. Western Uighur, Tibet, HK, FLG advocacy groups have been very active for the last 30 years, and now their issues are magnified when aligned with western state interests for propaganda purposes. China doesn't want another generation of dissidents influencing with countries abroad.

My guess is, HK nationals with linked anti-state activities will likely be denied ability to leave the country. If relations between China and West get particularly acrimonious, this will include foreign HKer with foreign passports who reside in HK under their HK citizenship - i.e. they get treated as Chinese nationals foremost since they never renounced their HK/Chinese citizenship. Many HKers with goldenticket passports who thought they could protest (read: foreign influence on Chinese affairs) consequence free may be in for a surprise. The entire situation can get off the rails.

I think what China is most likely to do is Integrate HK into greater Bayarea, squeeze protesters into margins of society and out of HK by blacklisting them from local opportunities, disperse 4/7 million rebellious voices until it's drowned out by 66/70 million pro-CCP voices. Basically what Social Credit was designed to do: expel non-productive people or those that burden Chinese development out of privileged areas and visibility. Indoctrinate new generation to comport to CCP values, replaced displaced dissenters with mainlanders. HK becomes just another tamed Chinese city.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#68

Post by masonic »

rrss wrote: post #41
gambiting wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a citizen of a country that was invaded and taken apart multiple times in the last 200 years(Poland) - no, that's a very noble idea, but in practice that doesn't always work. Poland has survived in the shape that it is mostly because people were able to move and cultivate the Polish language, culture and heritage elsewhere temporarily. We even had a government-in-exile for a while in London, at the time when Polan…

I don't think it's useful to generalize about whether people 'should' 'stay and fight' or not - it depends so much on the individuals and on the circumstances, but anyway: Ultra was able to successfully decrypt Enigma messages because the British evacuated Polish code breakers, so I suppose it's a good thing those people didn't stay and fight. The Polish resistance saved tens of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust a…

The Poles also fought a two-front war better than the French fought their one-front war thereafter.
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