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Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

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Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#11

Post by viraptor »

madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

But given the frets are placed to divide the length of the string in a specific place, you're aiming to play equal temperament, right? You're using that system on a typical guitar, even if the sounds don't match exactly.

Of course it's not going to be perfect, but it's still closer to 12TET-with-noise than some specific mediaeval tuning.

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#12

Post by nicetryguy »

madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that.

I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rare trinary intersection. It saddens me that no one is really trying to push the envelope of acoustic instruments or even new ways of producting digital sound. It's the same old Square and Saw waves with the same instruments we have had for hundreds of years. Sadly i think musicianship has all but died in Gen Z, quantization / pitch correction / take splicing / overuse of compression are rampant, and every popular artist is basically as fake as Milli Vanilli. Protools has raised a generation of lazy and uncreative musicians with awful rhythm. Get off my lawn! Ok i'm done.

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#13

Post by canjobear »

dehrmann wrote: post #2

> The first such transformation is to lower the third by one step to obtain a minor triad. For some reason, we perceive minor chords as sad or melancholy, sometimes a bit whiny. I'd love to hear more on "some reason." In a way, it's so arbitrary, and maybe it's a cultural bias, but so sad. And the minor iv chord, so sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQFtvAfHndE , right when he sings "when September ends," but ther…

It’s a learned cultural association. People who have not been exposed to Western music don’t even distinguish consonance from dissonance.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27409816/

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#14

Post by viraptor »

dehrmann wrote: post #2

> The first such transformation is to lower the third by one step to obtain a minor triad. For some reason, we perceive minor chords as sad or melancholy, sometimes a bit whiny. I'd love to hear more on "some reason." In a way, it's so arbitrary, and maybe it's a cultural bias, but so sad. And the minor iv chord, so sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQFtvAfHndE , right when he sings "when September ends," but ther…

If you're into that, check out Adam Neely's channel. There's been a few videos on that and related topics: https://youtu.be/6c_LeIXrzAk

(Spoiler: lots of historical context about tuning systems, but also raising the issue of timbre of specific instruments)

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#15

Post by mping »

nicetryguy wrote: post #12
madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rar…

Check Jacob Collier if you haven't already. He is really pushing it, he has a song where he changes the temperament during the song (sorry if this imprecise/wrong). He is kinda like a musical prodigy. Not my cup of tea but I do recognize he is very refreshing.

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#16

Post by baddox »

nicetryguy wrote: post #12
madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rar…

What do you mean by “self adjusting just intonation”? Presumably you would need to sequence the desired key changes in your song, because I don’t think you’re going to want software to attempt that automatically. And it can get more complicated than that. I can imagine songs where you would want a melody note in one key to be sustained while the rest of the harmony transitions around it into a new key, which is also something that I can’t imagine being done automatically right now.

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#17

Post by globular-toast »

nicetryguy wrote: post #12
madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rar…

The Access Virus C I owned several years ago could automatically adjust major and minor thirds to be "perfect", but only when played as a chord. It made a big difference.

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#18

Post by progre »

nicetryguy wrote: post #12
madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rar…

> It saddens me that no one is really trying to push the envelope of acoustic instruments or even new ways of producting digital sound.

I don't know this to be true, I see people building weird musical instruments all the time. As for electronic sounds (it's not always digital) the modular community is absoultely teeming with expression. Here are some fun guys: https://youtu.be/AGN5N4vn5Bs

https://youtu.be/DKSr8CE7600

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#19

Post by slaymaker1907 »

canjobear wrote: post #13
dehrmann wrote: post #2

> The first such transformation is to lower the third by one step to obtain a minor triad. For some reason, we perceive minor chords as sad or melancholy, sometimes a bit whiny. I'd love to hear more on "some reason." In a way, it's so arbitrary, and maybe it's a cultural bias, but so sad. And the minor iv chord, so sad. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQFtvAfHndE , right when he sings "when September ends," but ther…

It’s a learned cultural association. People who have not been exposed to Western music don’t even distinguish consonance from dissonance. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27409816/

This is incorrect. Consonance or dissonance is based on physical properties of the sounds. As the paper mentions, pleasantness of the consonance vs dissonance varies from culture to culture. The paper specifically mentions in the abstract that the other cultures were able to distinguish consonance from dissonance.

Re: Guitar Decomposed: 5. Mutating the Third

#20

Post by isolli »

nicetryguy wrote: post #12
madhadron wrote: post #9

From the first post in the series: > We now use the so called equal temperament system... Unless I'm playing a piano, no, I don't. And since I have an electric piano, I have been known to set it to meantone, but I accept that I'm a freak. Even on a guitar you have a fair amount of variation in pitch based on pressure and position of the left hand fingers relative to the fret. Not as much as on old instruments with gu…

I still think its fair to say we use the equal temperment system. It is a widely accepted standard. You're right, fret pressure alone can absolutely raise the pitch 5/10 cents, my Gibson SG has some deep frets and can do double that. I am surprised with all of the technology and VSTs we have now no one really uses self adjusting Just intonation or challenges A 440. Musical / mathematical / technical ability are a rar…

Gary Garrett is a musician who works with just intonation (or, as he calls it, untempered music) [0]. Below is a link to a piece he composed [1]. Definitely worth checking out.

[0] http://www.garygarrett.me/?page_id=1922 [1] https://youtu.be/jA1C9VFqJKo

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