Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin • Hacker News Board

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#181

Post by empath75 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 11:14 PM UTC

joeberon wrote: post #163

empath75 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't want to downplay the negative effect it had on you and the difficulty you're having integrating the experience, but it's possible that long term, confronting those thoughts and feelings directly and coming through the other side will end up being better for you. Everyone has to confront their own mortality eventually.

>confronting those thoughts and feelings directly and coming through the other side will end up being better for you. I am not sure whether this is actually true, or whether the rumination and pondering will mess me up more

Well, hopefully you can come to some resolution about what it all means. I went through something similar after a bad trip and it made me focus on what’s important to be doing in life with the time I have left.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#182

Post by luckydata » Fri, May 29, 2020, 12:46 AM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #174

luckydata wrote: post #148

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the psychedelic effect is simply (so to speak) the outcome of shutting down your executive function (that one that creates your internal monologue and gives you the perception of the self) so that the rest of your brain function that normally are "kept together and normalized" become more accessible for analysis and introspection. Psychedelics are not anti-depressant, are just a potent accelerator for discovering WHY…

> If you ever did a dose once you would understand exactly what I'm talking about, it's pretty hard not to understand what's happening once you experience it, just as it is essentially impossible before doing it. Sorry, that sounds religious. I've experimented with psychedelics quite a bit, I've had very different intense experiences on them that have strongly affected me for long periods of time. That said, psychede…

You understood very little of what I was saying and it looks on purpose. If you like to go around feeling morally superior to people of faith (I’m not one of them btw) then leave me out of that please.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#183

Post by WalterSear » Fri, May 29, 2020, 2:44 AM UTC

pas wrote: post #142

WalterSear wrote: post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They don't. Fwiw, the psychedelic effect of ketamine is separate from its antidepressant effect.

Hm, could you elaborate on that please? Do you mean the separate as in stereoisomer-wise? Or do you mean that ketamin has multiple effects on the brain or central nervous system, and one is the antidepressant effect and the other is the tripping balls effect? (And obviously pharma would like to find out what's going on exactly in the first case or ... how to block the second case while still having the first effect h…

* the stereo-isomers have differing effects: s-ketamine being more inebriating and less anti-depressant, while r-ketamine is less inebriating and has a stronger anti-depressant effect.

* The inebriant effect can be modulated without altering the anti-depressant effect, at least in lab rats. Cannabis is one drug that does this.

* The pharmaceutical company that ran the clinical trials for esketamine likely did so because it is actually the least effective anti-depressant of the two entanomers, and less effective than regular ketamine. By trialing and patenting the less effective one first, they can then patent the more effective one later, and make money longer, by dragging their feet. Esketamine is currently a few hundred dollars a dose (every three days). My ketamine is $70 for ~6 week supply. Capitalism is wonderful.

* fwiw, ketamine triggers other pathways in the brain, including ones that are involved in attention deficit and wakefulness. It has the same effect as amantadine - an ADHD medication. I can't take it after 10 am or so, if I am going to get a decent night's sleep.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#184

Post by deathgrips » Fri, May 29, 2020, 2:55 AM UTC

kranner wrote: post #21

deathgrips wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. >A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior If you think that big bad pharma companies are keeping people from taking one-time…

> I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. What does conscientiousness have to do with it? You might need to travel or transit through a country which prohibits carrying them. Now you have to cancel the trip or go without the medicine. > by all means come up with a one-time cure on your own This is not helpful. People have the right to ask questions without being asked to d…

The point I was making is that right now a one-time cure seems impossible. If you think it's doable, please come up with some evidence for it.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#185

Post by kranner » Fri, May 29, 2020, 4:15 AM UTC

deathgrips wrote: post #184

kranner wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. What does conscientiousness have to do with it? You might need to travel or transit through a country which prohibits carrying them. Now you have to cancel the trip or go without the medicine. > by all means come up with a one-time cure on your own This is not helpful. People have the right to ask questions without being asked to d…

The point I was making is that right now a one-time cure seems impossible. If you think it's doable, please come up with some evidence for it.

Please have your strawman back as I said nothing about the feasibility of a one-time cure. I was backing up dTal's right to say that a one-time cure would be superior, without suffering a pointless ad-hominem rejoinder that why don't they find one if they're so clever.

One-time cures may be a sci-fi dream but they are highly desirable, as anyone who needs regular/prophylactic treatment for any severe ongoing condition knows.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#186

Post by deathgrips » Fri, May 29, 2020, 4:48 AM UTC

SuoDuanDao wrote: post #25

deathgrips wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you take an anti-depressant pill everyday and it solves your problem, why is that bad? Are you hostile to medication in general?

I would say if the symptoms reappear when you stop taking a medication, your problem isn't solved so much as the symptoms are being managed. Given that mood disorders can be due to some underlying conflict within the person's psyche, simply alleviating all negative symptoms seems at odds with the goal of getting as many people as possible to self-actualization.

>Given that mood disorders can be due to some underlying conflict within the person's psyche

Couldn't be further from the truth. I know where you're going with this and I think we are in agreement on the majority of mental illnesses (as the brain's best response to stress), but mood disorders are in a different category entirely. Mood disorders and schizophrenia do not respond to therapy. They are never cured or recovered from. All you can do is manage the symptoms.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#187

Post by elbear » Fri, May 29, 2020, 6:36 AM UTC

specialist wrote: post #114

elbear wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How are you dealing with that experience now? Did it completely put you off meditating?

re mediating: I tried to resume shortly thereafter. FHCRC (always doing experiments) had a doctor working on pain and toxicity. Her angle was mindfulness, mediation, hypnosis. Didn't work on me. Though I do yoga style relaxation, manage my pains, I've not been able to attain trance state again, much less the next stage. I think it's because I can't concentrate, focus that way any more. Cuz chemo brain. The only succe…

I'm glad to hear that you're coping and that you found a practice that works for you.

Wish you well and I hope you have a fruitful journey :)

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#188

Post by dTal » Fri, May 29, 2020, 8:53 AM UTC

PragmaticPulp wrote: post #124

dTal wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

> A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. No research points to psychedelics being a one-time, permanent cure. That's an extreme misrepresentation of the science. In fact, the current psychedelic research revolves around a series of intense therapy sessions, a small number of which involve psychedelics. They aren't just giving people psychedelics to take at home and hoping for the best. And again, no serious…

I never suggested that the dose be ad-hoc, nor implied that we should just give people psychedelics to take home and hope for the best.

"One time cure" is indeed not accurate, today, but as a shorthand it captures the promise of psychedelic treatments. A single session can give benefits lasting many months, and some people may remit entirely. This is why more research is needed.

>I'm sure the vast majority of people would prefer a daily pill that has no cognitive distortions.

These don't exist. Existing psychological medication, not unsurprisingly, often comes with severe cognitive distortions - far worse than a single psychedelic trip every few months.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#189

Post by shlant » Fri, May 29, 2020, 11:32 AM UTC

elbear wrote: post #94

shlant wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if some have a genetic predisposition to bad reactions to psychedelics. My best friend had an LSD reaction similar to yours (increasingly intense hallucinations until falling on the ground and starting to seize). His brother had a bad experience with psilocybin and jumped out a window. I believe a second brother also had a bad experience. Makes me even more concerned when people talk about psychedelics as a…

I believe it's more about your psychology at the time but also your past trauma that determines how you react to it. Experience with meditation should help with any weird moments too.

I hear what you are saying, but I'm not just talking about generalized "bad trips" similar to my own - I'm referring to people who's physical bodies have extreme reactions (such as seizures) that seem to be outside the norm (although probably not as rare as most think).

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#190

Post by shlant » Fri, May 29, 2020, 11:39 AM UTC

luckydata wrote: post #150

shlant wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wonder if some have a genetic predisposition to bad reactions to psychedelics. My best friend had an LSD reaction similar to yours (increasingly intense hallucinations until falling on the ground and starting to seize). His brother had a bad experience with psilocybin and jumped out a window. I believe a second brother also had a bad experience. Makes me even more concerned when people talk about psychedelics as a…

the "jumped out of a window" part seems suspect. It's a common anti-LSD propaganda trope but as far as I know it happened only once provably. It's so strange that your best friend would have been the second case of that. IMHO psychedelics get a bad rap because they are used by people that haven't done even the bare minimum reading and preparation to have an optimal experience. It's not difficult to do, and once you a…

sounds like you have a bit of a pro psychedelic bias here and are minimizing people's experiences. This isn't just some story I heard, this is a person that I know and who I witnessed struggle to heal from literal broken bones over years.

"as far as I know it happened only once provably" = "I haven't heard of it, so it must not exist or be a lie". Pretty unproductive perspective to have...

I find your kind of flippant "well they just didn't do it right" approach a very common defense of various forms of dogma. Maybe you should consider that mind-altering substances can have consequences for even those who approach them in the most responsible way possible.