I have such a love-hate relationship with Latex. I use it almost every day. I love how easy it is to write beautiful math, and how easy it is to organize well large documents. It's fast (in general). And, thank god, there are lots of information online. But boy do I hate the whole semi-broken macro-based system. The package management feels so outdated. Errors are hard to decipher. Package documentation is there but…
Noob question: No one makes LaTeX "distros"? Failing that, what about sharing a Docker image?
Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
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Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#122OT. I am surprised that the LaTeX name didn't end up in a heated argument between Don Knuth and Leslie Lamport, like the infamous GNU/Linux vs Linux dispute between Stallman and Torvalds. Maybe scientists are more civilized, maybe it helped that LaTeX already has TeX embedded in its name. In retrospect, Lignux might not have been a bad name. The 'g' would be silent of course.
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#123OT. I am surprised that the LaTeX name didn't end up in a heated argument between Don Knuth and Leslie Lamport, like the infamous GNU/Linux vs Linux dispute between Stallman and Torvalds. Maybe scientists are more civilized, maybe it helped that LaTeX already has TeX embedded in its name. In retrospect, Lignux might not have been a bad name. The 'g' would be silent of course.
I can’t imagine either one of those guys giving a crap.
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#124What a lot of people don't realize about LaTeX is that much of its awkwardness comes from it being a product of two very strong personalities (both Turing Award winners for unrelated work!) pulling it in two opposing directions:
• Donald Knuth, who designed TeX as a tool for typesetting primarily, allowing a meticulous author complete control over the appearance of his pages, and attempting to capture in a program (or at least making possible) the highest standards of typography developed over the centuries since the invention of printing.(†)
• Leslie Lamport, who wrote LaTeX as a macro package running in TeX, trying to hide complexity from the author and making things as convenient as possible, out of a (probably correct) belief that authors should not care about the appearance and instead only focus on the content! (https://lamport.azurewebsites.net/pubs/document-production.p...)
The result is that with LaTeX, things look “easy” superficially, but everything is implemented in TeX macros (never intended as a full-fledged programming language), so things break in mysterious ways. Not to mention the additional layers of complexity from zillions of users writing their own "packages" for everything. The error messages don't make sense to users because they often come from the bowels of TeX, and I suspect that many users even just ignore(!) warnings about overfull/underfull boxes.
Conversely, if you look at one of Knuth's own documents written in plain TeX, everything is startlingly simple: for example there is no automatic equation numbering or cross-references; for Equation 5 you just write "5" in the equation and refer to it as "(5)" later, none of that stuff with "\eqref{eq:foo}" or whatever. If macros are used, they tend to be custom for the document, rather than elaborate general-purpose ones. Consider giving plain TeX a try (a great book is A Beginner's Book of TeX by Seroul and Levy); everything makes sense, you feel in power, all the error messages are clear (often the same error messages! but now they apply to something you actually wrote/intended), and if nothing else, you'll end up with an appreciation of what LaTeX is/does.
This comment is turning into a repetition of my same tiresome comments on other sites (https://cstheory.stackexchange.com/a/40282, https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/398372, https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/386592, https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/384881, https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/518802 etc.) so I'll stop here I guess :-)
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(†): good paragraphs, avoiding widows and orphans and hyphenation on consecutive lines and loose/tight lines adjacent to each other, all of that. By far the longest chapter in The TeXbook, the manual on how to use TeX, is called “Fine Points of Mathematics Typing” and teaches the careful reader about aspects of typography that TeX does not handle automatically — and this is not even counting such advice in other chapters such as ties for avoiding line breaks in “psychologically bad” places. See for example http://www.rtznet.nl/zink/comparison.pdf (linked from http://www.rtznet.nl/zink/latex.php?lang=en) comparing plain-text paragraphs in Word and InDesign and TeX. If you look at the “bad” typesetting that Knuth rejected as painful (https://tex.stackexchange.com/a/367133), I think you get the idea :-)
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#125Earlier quoted context omitted.
Almost no documents properly support ctrl-F. You'll get at best single word search, but you won't find coherent sentences. There are arbitrary line-breaks caused by various styling and layout packages (most columns are broken). There are even publishers that purposefully put garbage into the PDF's text layer as a braindead form of "piracy protection". PDF and TeX are broken beyond repair in terms of accessibility. Th…
> PDF and TeX are broken beyond repair in terms of accessibility. All that needs to be done is to have a accessible text section of the PDF--then Tex can just include the source of the document minus the Tex commands into the PDF, and PDF readers can have the screen reader work. The text could also just be stored per page, if the blind require to communicate where they found a particular item to a sighted person.
PDF already has exactly that. They separate they have a view layer and a text layer.
But it simply doesn't work, because people can't be bothered to get the text right, once the view layer is acceptable.
Also TeX minus the tags, is not the final text in any way, because it's not markup, it's code.
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#126I've said it before and I'll say it again: the single most cost effective way to speed up math and physics research by a philanthropist would be taking a few million dollars and hiring a team of developers to bring LaTeX into the 21st century: Take the 100 most popular packages and fold them into the main code base (so I don't need to install conflicting packages just to get three columns!). Create a non-buggy deskto…
Already in the 80's Jeff Bezos refused to use latex due to its absurd difficulty to use. I can't believe it's been 40 years and there still isn't a better tool to write papers with.
It took me less than an hour to create a Google Docs template that looks roughly as good as a standard Latex document. The reason Latex looks beautiful is due to a set of wisely chosen defaults, nothing more.
Yet the focus of Google Docs clearly isn't scientific papers. I don't imagine it would take more than a few passionate employees at Google to expand Docs to a powerhouse of scientific writing.
Pictures of my template can be found below:
(and a blogpost about my Latex induced misery) http://mathiasbonde.com/?p=72
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#127Earlier quoted context omitted.
bUt MuH TypESeTtInG! I think you're absolutely right. But people seem to value a specific flavour of aesthetics over easy to understand and reproducible research. I guess that's maybe partly caused by the publication pressure, once you start to pump out papers for pumping out papers sake, there is little incentive to go beyond the superficial.
I have a dream that one day we'll get a language for typesetting that isn't a markup language. Rather, this language would be designed to come after writing, in the same way that flagship Desktop Publishing software (InDesign, Publisher) make the assumption that layout happens after writing. (Sure, you can write inside the layout software, but you're not supposed to. They're assuming e.g. a journalist–editor–layout–t…
It's an interesting idea, but a counterpoint would be: Why all this work for a dying medium? Paper is on it's way out, and there are so many different screen formats (including E-Inc) that dynamic layout is the way to go.
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#128Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're an actual mathematician writing pages and pages of equations, LaTeX is not complicated, unintuitive, ugly, or slow. It's actually extremely well designed for addressing what is a very difficult problem, the problem of translating mathematics into ASCII. For how difficult that problem is, LaTeX is quite genius. I think a lot of the would-be LaTeX-disruptors lack enough experience actually writing mathematics…
Are you specifically talking about the math syntax within latex, or actual latex commands in general? Because I would disagree on the latter one. (But I'm a computer scientist not a mathematician.) uglyness is porbably hard to discuss as it's just a matter of taste. I personally consider compile times that are measured in seconds for "simple" tasks slow (here's the question of it being an inherent problem of the spac…
Compile time of course, can be fixed by reimplementing the whole compiler in a modern language.
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#129Earlier quoted context omitted.
If you're an actual mathematician writing pages and pages of equations, LaTeX is not complicated, unintuitive, ugly, or slow. It's actually extremely well designed for addressing what is a very difficult problem, the problem of translating mathematics into ASCII. For how difficult that problem is, LaTeX is quite genius. I think a lot of the would-be LaTeX-disruptors lack enough experience actually writing mathematics…
Are you specifically talking about the math syntax within latex, or actual latex commands in general? Because I would disagree on the latter one. (But I'm a computer scientist not a mathematician.) uglyness is porbably hard to discuss as it's just a matter of taste. I personally consider compile times that are measured in seconds for "simple" tasks slow (here's the question of it being an inherent problem of the spac…
Re: Have you ever asked yourself “how did research get done before LateX?”
#130LaTeX is great, but it's obsolete (bad Unicode support), and is output to a problematic format (pdf).
Unicode support in LaTeX has not been an issue since XeTeX became mature technology, so over a decade already.
\[ ∫_Σ ∇ ⨯ 𝐅 ⋅ dΣ = ∮_{∂Σ}𝐅⋅d𝐫 \]
That will turn into a typeset version when run through LaTeX (using the unicode-math package). More details at https://lwn.net/Articles/657157/.
Also, any format except PDF is problematic. PDF is the only (widely used) format that will preserve formatting.