Remote work means anyone can take your job • Hacker News Board

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#271

Post by buboard » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

beager wrote: post #19

The implication from this litter of thinkpieces on HN is that proximity to a tech hub (SV/NY) is your only competitive advantage as a knowledge worker—your butt is close to their chair. This runs counter to the other prevailing wisdom about SV/NY, which is that those areas are hubs—and essential to the tech industry—because the world's top talent is drawn to it. So which is it?

immigration doesn't select for the most talented, it selects for the younger, the male, the willing, the otherwise unburdened etc. The intellectual bar to enter SV is not that high. The willingness to relocate, assimilate to the culture etc, is.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#272

Post by sb52191 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

joelbluminator wrote: post #90

quxpar wrote: post #63

Pre-remote, I was afraid of a random person walking in off the street and doing my job. I don't think I ever worked for a successful company that wasn't continually hiring people in my role. I don't think the author realizes that large businesses that rely on software see tech as a team sport, in which camaraderie plays a huge role. Subconsciously, they're willing to pay another $40k for a better social/emotional exp…

I'd take B over you anytime buddy. You sound like you're 19, not that there's anything wrong with being 19. But your preference isn't everyone's preference.

Option B sounds far more likely to stick around the company for a long period of time, option A sounds more like the type to leave after 1-2 years for something more "attractive".

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#273

Post by jmspring » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

Despite a market for cheap labor, especially around CRAuD apps, companies doing complex things require a certain level of experience and skill.

Outsourcing firms thrive on having one “knowledgeable” person who interfaces with a client, and a bunch of cheap worker bees behind that person. Generally the quality and deliverable are influenced by how much you sit on top of and manage them.

As for low caliber remote talent taking jobs, the same applies... there will be certainly a threshold where that can happen. At a certain point, though, experience and competence are necessary. That could be anywhere, but it’s hard to amass such remotely.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#274

Post by kemiller » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

Timezone and cultural compatibility still matter, as we've collectively discovered over the last 30 years. Offshoring was already happening before this and will continue to do so, but there will remain demand for people onshore. Presumably the world will eventually have enough software developers, but it's showing no signs of it in the foreseeable future.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#275

Post by buboard » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:17 PM UTC

There is only one way out of it: Regulation. So far, entities have been gatekeeping people into SV: at first it was stanford degrees, later it's just relocation to SV. With that gone, there s no other route than regulation, like so many other professions.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#276

Post by frockington1 » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

gexla wrote: post #175

gregkerzhner wrote: post #132

Real time, remote communication through tools like zoom, slack, and lucidchart (in my humble opinion) has been solved. It might take some getting used to, but in the right environment a group of properly motivated individuals can achieve the same productivity as their peers in a conference room. Asynchronous communication across timezones has not been solved, and I struggle to see how it would be. A lot of collaborat…

> someone has to be the "top dog" attracting the top talent As I said in my comment, this is the big shift I would be looking for. The shift in the top dogs. The top dog could become a Chinese company snagging US expertise rather than the other way around. That could then create effects where US workers are applying to jobs abroad. The real competition might not be positioning yourself as the talent. The real competi…

I can't imagine any of my US coworkers every working for a Chinese company. The non-zero chance of being sent to a 're-education camp' if you ever have to travel is a big concern

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#277

Post by dougmwne » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

blululu wrote: post #162

gregkerzhner wrote: post #132

Real time, remote communication through tools like zoom, slack, and lucidchart (in my humble opinion) has been solved. It might take some getting used to, but in the right environment a group of properly motivated individuals can achieve the same productivity as their peers in a conference room. Asynchronous communication across timezones has not been solved, and I struggle to see how it would be. A lot of collaborat…

I don't think that 'Tennessee' is the correct spelling for Shenzhen. The low cost of living states in the US are still expensive compared to low cost of living countries. There is engineering talent around the world, and I don't see how the rural parts of the US are going to compete with more urban populations in other well educated parts of the world.

Actually if you look at cost of living data, the USA is in quite an interesting position. It contains both some of the most expensive and cheapest cost of living in the developed world. Salaries in some areas are some of the highest in the world, and in other places are closer to Eastern Europe or South America once you've accounted for things like taxes and healthcare. There's a seriously huge gap in pay when looking at Rust Belt Ohio vs the Bay Area.

Two kids go to school at Ohio State in the same program. One moves to SF and makes 200k right out of school. The other stays in Ohio and has a starting salary of 55k doing similar work. I don't think you need to worry about the Chinese coming for your tech jobs. In a remote world, the Buckeyes will get there first.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#278

Post by Avicebron » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

take_a_breath wrote: post #205

mc32 wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

An additional problem MBAs sometimes miss is that when you export jobs to contract orgs is that this accumulated institutional knowledge is lost—it’s no longer held in-house. Conversely it contributes to the expertise of the contract org. But not all orgs think long term. Or they get enthralled by “core competency”.

I don't think this is really missed by the MBAs, HN's favorite punching bag. These types of opportunity costs are absolutely a part of the make/buy decision process (but maybe undervalued?). I think it has much more to to with the "enthralled by core competency" aspect.

I'm confused by your use of "enthralled by core competency". I think if an MBA is actively dissembling the structures that brought a successful product together and exerting destructive control over any further research they absolutely deserve some criticism.

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#279

Post by foogazi » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:21 PM UTC

isbvhodnvemrwvn wrote: post #222

gregkerzhner wrote: post #180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anectodal, but I spent a year on a recent project collaborating with a group of firmware engineers in Shenzhen, and it was an absolute nightmare. Apart from the timezones, the code quality was horrendous and basically never worked correctly. They also ignored all common standards, and made assumptions about things like ordering of fields in JSON. None of their engineers spoke english, so code communication had to go…

You probably got what your company paid for.

Are SV based companies getting what they pay for?

Re: Remote work means anyone can take your job

#280

Post by dougmwne » Thu, May 28, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

arcticbull wrote: post #153

antishatter wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was at Intel, they had outsourced graphics driver development to Panang. Within a year they had created a large number of US jobs for folks who had to rebuild the work from Panang and validate/test/fix any new working coming back from Panang. There is a difference between a cheap foreign engineer without formal training and a trained domestic engineer. Anyone who thinks every type of labor can be outsourced to…

> There is a difference between a cheap foreign engineer without formal training and a trained domestic engineer. IMO there's no difference between a trained domestic engineer and a trained foreign engineer. Foreign vs domestic isn't a meaningful difference. However. Existing tech hubs got their cachet for having the best and the brightest, which in turn draws in the best and the brightest. Companies have to pay more…

Of course there's a difference. A domestic engineer needs great software development skills and decent communication skills. A foreign engineer needs great software skills, great English skills and an extra measure of communications skills to bridge the cultural gap without ever meeting face-to-face. Clearly one of these workers is more highly skilled than the other and would be harder to recruit.