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Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

nature.com

101–110 of 192 posts

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#101
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. Why does it have to include the psychedelic component though (even sub-trip-levels)? Some seem to think that you absolutely must not divide the psychedelic qualities from other qualities, even if you could. As if "you only deserve to en…

I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profou…

>> You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement.

What you are describing is the state of enlightenment, and those who have had sustained experiences with it would disagree.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#102
post #33
post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

> they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day. I feel like this model is a perfect example of how the incentive structure of the pharmaceutical industry runs counter to pursuit of the best outcomes. From what I understand anecdotally, psilocybin taken in moderate doses can have beneficial effects on depression and anxiety which last for weeks or months after the dose. This would be an amazing…

[deleted]

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#103
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I take a prescribed ketamine lozenge every day. I don't experience any psychedelic effects and I'm fine with that.

I’m very curious about how much you take daily and the effects. I’ve read about the super high dosage therapy, and that made a lot of sense to me. Are you just ever so slightly dissociated at all times?

Not the OP, but I'm prescribed ketamine for chronic nerve pain.

Prescription is for 25mg orally 4-6 times a day, but I find 15mg as effective as 25mg, but with no side effects at all.

At 25mg I do feel slightly dizzy for an hour or so.

Ketamine has a small, but noticeable effect on the pain - but has had a huge effect on my ability to deal with the pain.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#104
post #2

I'm kind of hoping this puts the nail in the coffin with researchers trying to separate the psychedelic effects from the anti-depressant effects so that they can turn it into some kinda pill people have to take every day.

All medications have two kinds of effects: therapeutic effects, and any number of side effects. The "problem" with compounds that can alter our state of mind is that, by definition , they can be fun/weird/recreational if taken in meaningful doses. And this, of course, scares the government and the pharmaceutical industry. They are not allowed to sell things which can be used for disorder (read: "recreation"). So the…

> And this, of course, is what scares the government and the pharmaceutical industry.

The opioid epidemic has shown that not all pharmaceutical companies feel constrained in this way.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

All medications have two kinds of effects: therapeutic effects, and any number of side effects. The "problem" with compounds that can alter our state of mind is that, by definition , they can be fun/weird/recreational if taken in meaningful doses. And this, of course, scares the government and the pharmaceutical industry. They are not allowed to sell things which can be used for disorder (read: "recreation"). So the…

> And this, of course, is what scares the government and the pharmaceutical industry. The opioid epidemic has shown that not all pharmaceutical companies feel constrained in this way.

This is an excellent point and seems to torpedo my entire argument.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#106
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profou…

>> You can't just be happy all the time without having a reason to be happy, you can't be in love without someone to love and if you could it would seem more like a nightmare than an improvement. What you are describing is the state of enlightenment, and those who have had sustained experiences with it would disagree.

it's hard to argue with a buddha I guess

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#107
post #88
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Moderate does trips aren't for everyone. The HN crew is full of novelty-seeking, curious, open-minded explorers, already drawn to this sort of experience. Your average, vanilla soccer mom who is largely okay with life but struggles with panic attacks because her brain isn't great at damping the amygdala-cortical loop, may not necessarily be ready/interested in a trip through psychedelic space.

I think the answer to that is to slowly increase the dose over a number of sessions. Starting out with microdosing to get used to the body feeling, then getting used to visual disturbances and the altered mental state, and then graduating to a level that can unlock new perspectives on self and the world. This absolutely has to be done by a trained professional with personal experience with the substance and who has a…

Ketamine is being used to good effect these days in major depression. I wonder if they ramp up the doses like that when using it?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The most common treatment protocol is a single psychedelics session assisted by 2 therapists (preceded by a few therapy sessions and some follow-ups). Ketamine is approved by the FDA for depression and also has a history, albeit shady, of being prescribed off-label at IV clinics. This is far more common than psychotherapy while taking medication and much less expensive too. > If you follow the evidence for the most…

FWIW, Ketamine is not a psychedelic. It's a dissociative.

It doesn’t affect the same receptors as “classic” psychedelics (LSD, DMT, Mescaline) but dissociatives aka dissociative psychedelics are wildly psychedelic at high doses. It seems ludicrous to insist otherwise. Is Salvinorin-A not a psychedelic?

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#109
post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is exactly the stigma psychedelic enthusiasts have in mind. Psychedelic-assisted therapy doesn't need to rely on patients being administered psychedelic doses on a daily basis. Why does it have to include the psychedelic component though (even sub-trip-levels)? Some seem to think that you absolutely must not divide the psychedelic qualities from other qualities, even if you could. As if "you only deserve to en…

I believe the sentiment most people are expressing when they say you cannot separate the "trip" from the beneficial effects is that they both have the same origin or causative agent. Personally I'm in the "neural annealing" camp and it makes sense to me from personal experience that the benefits are due to psychedelics being a drug that essentially induces a state that you would normally only experience during profou…

I completely agree that the profound experiences you can have during psychedelic trips can be life-altering. I don't know whether it's the experience that leads to the other benefits, and if it doesn't, I see no reason why one would have to get them bundled.

The OP's comment reminded me of a some people I've come across that were into meditation and were anti-psychedelics, and to me it seemed like their main issue was that you could get these very deep experiences like ego-death but you didn't earn it, you didn't sit and quiet yourself for months and years, you just popped something into your mouth, experienced a bit of nausea and were teleported into a different dimension. It always seemed to me that they felt cheated because they took the hard road and felt that it's unfair that others took a short cut. Needless to say that it was even weirder given that they also tend to talk about compassion and inner peace a lot.

I totally understand if you believe that you simply cannot separate the psychedelic from other parts because it is what gives the benefits. I did get the feeling that that's not quite it though, that there's a lot of "and you shouldn't try to", and that feels like "you shouldn't get the benefits without embracing the experience, potentially encountering your demons etc", or a religious practice surrounding it.

Re: Alterations in glutamate and the experience of ego dissolution with psilocybin

#110
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. It can be expensive. It can stop working, from tolerance. It can have unpleasant side effects. A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior. And your closing sentence was unnecessarily combative.

>Daily medication, which must be taken without fail in order to have a normal life, is a liability. It can be lost, stolen, or missed. It must be obtained on a regular basis, and carried around on trips. I doubt these are a real problem for people who have a modicum of conscientiousness. >A one-time, permanent cure is clearly superior If you think that big bad pharma companies are keeping people from taking one-time…

I found myself irritated enough to talk about conscientiousness.

I have a permanent medical condition which calls for a somewhat antique medication. It is typically used "as needed," certainly not every day. I have had a regular prescription for over a decade and it has certainly improved my quality of life. I refill like clockwork, I am responsible about using it. It comes time for a refill and ... my pharmacist at Walgreens regrets to inform me that they cannot seem to get it, and that the manufacturer has stopped making it.

This is worrisome. I remember life before the medication. I dig through the FDA databases, locating every organization which has applied to make the medication and been issued an NDC (National Drug Code) identifier. Each organization is tracked down: are they still in existence? Have they been bought out and if so, by what other company? I discover buyouts, shutdowns, press releases saying that they are "exiting" some market. I make phone calls, I send emails, and, when no other contact information is available, I send letters with self-addressed stamped envelopes. Almost everyone who has ever made it has stopped or been stopped in one fashion or another. Meanwhile, I begin to canvass the distributors: McKeeson, Cardinal, AmeriSourceBergen. Are there any remaining in stock? If so, which pharmacies in my area do they work with? Most pharmacies have a single distributor. These are organizations who do not like to be contacted by the hoi polloi, and I have quite a lot of "How did you get this number?" conversations.

At last, a hit: someone has just started manufacturing it. Out of all of them, there's only one. I dutifully take this to Walgreens. After a few go-rounds, they cannot seem to get ahold of it. They suggest Walmart. I have to hassle my poor doctor's office, now in COVID-panic like everyone else, to move my script, which one required a special paper. Walmart swears they have it, they have contacted their distributor, they have bottles in stock. Wonderful. And it does not arrive, they call again, and it does not arrive, and they call again. Finally, they shrug and give up. Right!

I call CVS; they are sure they can get it. I transfer the script, again. Off I go to CVS. CVS says that, yes, it is in stock at their distributor. Similar to Walmart, after a few weeks, they cannot get it. The pharmacist has called the corporate offices and only knows that there is a "corporate block" on it and that, despite being able to submit an order for a bottle of pills which are present at a distributor, they will never ever arrive. I am disappointed, and, out of a little curiosity, I submit a letter to CVS corporate (again with the self-addressed stamped envelope to remove barriers to reply) asking just what this block is ... not that I ever get a reply.

I try a small, local shop. I wince at having to call my doctor to have the script transferred yet again. Surely they will try harder rather than giving me the brush-off you can so often get from large organizations. No dice. The dance is now familiar to me.

Armed with yet more research and NDC codes and distributor phone numbers, I approach my original pharmacy again. Another script transfer, with all of the pain entertained in moving something with a low Schedule number around. With the new information I have gathered and a great deal of persistence, they manage to obtain it. The head pharmacist tells me that the sole other patient on it will be relieved, and that he has never had to work this hard to get a prescription before.

By the end of this two month period, I had lost approximately twenty pounds and was clumsily knocking things over due to my coordination degrading. Finally, I managed to fall hard enough that I was still limping two months later.

The moral of the story is this: being conscientious does not guarantee availability. One can do all of the right things and still not have it on hand. Being dependent on a medication, even weekly, can be a burden, even if you attend to the situation quite closely. I urge you not to be quite so flippant about it.

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