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U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

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Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#41

Post by rrss »

gambiting wrote: post #13
mcfly1985 wrote: post #4

Um, no? At what point are the citizens of a country responsible for changing it for the better? The citizens of Hong Kong need to stay and fight for the rights they desire, not run away to another country.

As a citizen of a country that was invaded and taken apart multiple times in the last 200 years(Poland) - no, that's a very noble idea, but in practice that doesn't always work. Poland has survived in the shape that it is mostly because people were able to move and cultivate the Polish language, culture and heritage elsewhere temporarily. We even had a government-in-exile for a while in London, at the time when Polan…

I don't think it's useful to generalize about whether people 'should' 'stay and fight' or not - it depends so much on the individuals and on the circumstances, but anyway:

Ultra was able to successfully decrypt Enigma messages because the British evacuated Polish code breakers, so I suppose it's a good thing those people didn't stay and fight.

The Polish resistance saved tens of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust and gave a ton of information to the Allies, so I suppose it's a good thing those people did stay and fight.

Tens of thousands of Polish soldiers (under the direction of the Polish government in exile) fought with the Allies throughout the war, so I suppose it's a good those people left and fought.

Just some random thoughts, everything is complicated.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#42

Post by mcfly1985 »

dx87 wrote: post #25
phkahler wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not really the same situation in NK. But also the U.S. became what it is through standing up to the Brits. This goes for people too, at some point we all need to stand on our own. The U.S. isn't the worlds parent to run home to.

The Brits were also on the other side of the ocean, and we had substantial military support from the French. Things probably would have turned out differently if the UK could literally drive down the road to the colonies.

You act like the American revolution is the only instance of this. The French Revolution is another example of people fighting for change.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#43

Post by mcfly1985 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #36
dbcurtis wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is an overly simplistic analysis. The American colonies had strategic resources and positioning available to fight. Poland at the time did not. Examine Hong Kong’s strategic resources at the moment and tell us how you would deploy them in a fight.

America also had the financial and military support of France.

You act like the American revolution is the only instance of this. The French Revolution is another example of people fighting for change.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#44

Post by pmachinery »

> it’s easy to forget that many oppressed and subjugated people around the world still look to the U.S. with hope

It's easy to forget because it's just a fairy tale Americans tell themselves. Oppressed and subjugated people flee to the nearest country that isn't the one oppressing them. Often that country is in fact China (from North Korea).

This article doesn't even pretend to be talking about saving oppressed and subjugated people though; it almost brags that the idea is for the US to cynically "benefit from the human capital that created [Hong Kong's] wealth".

The people this article is talking about - the "financial and creative genius" - could walk into any country they wanted to, if they wanted to leave their home. They don't need the US.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#45

Post by adventured »

bspammer wrote: post #9

What would be the diplomatic consequences of this? I'm assuming China would be very unhappy with any country making this offer to Hong Kongers, but perhaps I'm wrong and they'd prefer for dissidents to leave.

Minimal real diplomatic consequences, other than China issuing some loud statements that they're furious at the US meddling in their internal affairs. It might amount to 100k-300k people as a max range.

It's an excellent opportunity for China to demonstrate the superiority of their system, as they so frequently claim.

We'll play a little game. Open immigration into China for US citizens. Open immigration into the US for Chinese citizens. Let's see who gets the most immigration (it'd be lopsided 1,000 to 1 with millions of immigrants flowing into the US; we did it with Cuba from ~1960-1980, there's no reason we can't do it for people wanting to flee China; if the next Democrat President is smart, they'll implement a variation of this to create a more aggressive and persistent brain drain on China).

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#46

Post by gambiting »

rrss wrote: post #41
gambiting wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a citizen of a country that was invaded and taken apart multiple times in the last 200 years(Poland) - no, that's a very noble idea, but in practice that doesn't always work. Poland has survived in the shape that it is mostly because people were able to move and cultivate the Polish language, culture and heritage elsewhere temporarily. We even had a government-in-exile for a while in London, at the time when Polan…

I don't think it's useful to generalize about whether people 'should' 'stay and fight' or not - it depends so much on the individuals and on the circumstances, but anyway: Ultra was able to successfully decrypt Enigma messages because the British evacuated Polish code breakers, so I suppose it's a good thing those people didn't stay and fight. The Polish resistance saved tens of thousands of Jews from the Holocaust a…

Absolutely, those are some very good points, thanks!

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#47

Post by JumpCrisscross »

mcfly1985 wrote: post #43
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

America also had the financial and military support of France.

You act like the American revolution is the only instance of this. The French Revolution is another example of people fighting for change.

The French Revolution was largely fought internally. Hong Kong’s situation is more like occupation than civil strife.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#48

Post by mcfly1985 »

sephlietz wrote: post #40
mcfly1985 wrote: post #4

Um, no? At what point are the citizens of a country responsible for changing it for the better? The citizens of Hong Kong need to stay and fight for the rights they desire, not run away to another country.

At what point are the people having heart attacks responsible for stopping them? The people having heart attacks need to treat them themselves, not run away to a hospital.

Nice straw man.

Re: U.S. Should Open America’s Doors to Hong Kong’s Citizens

#49

Post by billme »

bspammer wrote: post #9

What would be the diplomatic consequences of this? I'm assuming China would be very unhappy with any country making this offer to Hong Kongers, but perhaps I'm wrong and they'd prefer for dissidents to leave.

Here’s a recent, though very limited, example of Germany giving asylum for Hong Kong independence activists in 2019 - with China’s public response at the time:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-germany-hongkong/ch...

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