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The Day AppGet Died

keivan.io

371–380 of 566 posts

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#371

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. Microsoft really dropped the ball on this one. So much of what Microsoft has been doing — GitHub, .NET Core, NPM, Visual Studio Code, Windows Subsystem for Linux, etc. — has been to build goodwill with “developers! developers! developers!” Taking the resources to do an acquihire (or hire + bonus) right is small relative to the PR hit.

> Windows Subsystem for Linux, etc. — has been to build goodwill with “developers! WSL has been built for webdevs not to flock to *NIX from Windows, nothing else. Even naming it "Windows Subsystem for Linux" is an insult, since it sounds as if it was something for Linux, when in reality it's a "Linux Subsystem for Windows" and doesn't benefit Linux itself in any way.

> Even naming it "Windows Subsystem for Linux" is an insult…

The developers of WSL have said* that was mostly a legal concern. Calling it “Linux Subsystem for Windows” (listing “Linux” first) has wider implications for copyright/licensing:

> Just who is allowed to call a product or service Linux, anyway?

> Linus Torvalds has an answer for that: Nobody. Not without his say-so.

> The term "Linux" is a trademark and Torvalds owns it. His assignee, an organization called the Linux Mark Institute (LMI), is empowered to collect licensing fees from companies and individuals who want to use the word commercially.

> - https://www.infoworld.com/article/2671387/linus-gets-tough-o...

*I think it was during a Microsoft Build 2020 Q&A with the WSL team, but I can't find the video on YouTube.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#372

I remember the "good old days" of the Microsoft Borg. They were infamous for getting small companies in under NDA, then grabbing their tech, and dumping the small companies (often putting them out of business). They are not alone in this (Apple has done the same thing. I think they even have a term for it -"to Watson" * ). It's just that MS was the most egregious. It makes me sad to see they are still doing it. I've…

Here's something that I think was written in the early 1990s. Shows that the leopard hasn't changed its spots much: http://www.davar.net/HUMOR/STORIES/MS-CUISN.HTM

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "apt-get" is the classic tool for Windows Subsystem for Linux APT is the classic tool for debian-like Linux distributions. FTFY

Get used to it, this is going to be the bulk of the "Linux" users from now on. Edit: Imo not a bad thing, it's just how it is. A lot of people will learn (of) Linux through WSL. Linux as a runtime.

Considering the fact that there are five times as many Android devices as Windows devices, and the greater ease of use of Termux compared to WSL. I find that highly unlikely. Anecdotally every newbie programmer I've seen try to use WSL has just ended up installing Linux in frustration.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the article, it sounds like he did pursue. After some interviews Microsoft dropped contact.

Which I don't find all that weird. Quoting OP here; "after visiting the campus, I wasn’t too sure I wanted to work for such a big company, also moving from Canada to the U.S. wasn’t something I was too excited about". In the past, I've been in talks with an employer about a job, and my enthousiasm was only so-so, and that tended to put a brake on the proceedings.

That's perfectly fine but I'd expect the company, especially a company as large as Microsoft, to at least clarify the situation instead of just brutally ending communication.

I too have been in a similar situation (being interviewed at a startup and being clearly not super enthusiastic about the position being offered) but they decided to go with somebody else they gave me a courtesy call letting me know about it. I think it's the right thing to do.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Windows Subsystem for Linux, etc. — has been to build goodwill with “developers! WSL has been built for webdevs not to flock to *NIX from Windows, nothing else. Even naming it "Windows Subsystem for Linux" is an insult, since it sounds as if it was something for Linux, when in reality it's a "Linux Subsystem for Windows" and doesn't benefit Linux itself in any way.

> Even naming it "Windows Subsystem for Linux" is an insult… The developers of WSL have said* that was mostly a legal concern. Calling it “Linux Subsystem for Windows” (listing “Linux” first) has wider implications for copyright/licensing: > Just who is allowed to call a product or service Linux, anyway? > Linus Torvalds has an answer for that: Nobody. Not without his say-so. > The term "Linux" is a trademark and Tor…

Are you telling me MS could not be bothered to even ask Linus? And if there's a fee to pay it? They're a multi-billion dollar corp telling us they love Linux now.

Alternatively, calling it something like Nix subsystem for Windows or maybe just LSW would also do the trick, this seems like a lame excuse.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> some higher ups decided no, they don't need to hire you Total misjudgment on their part. Thanks to this one HN post they already lost in terms of developer good will way more than his potential salary would be. Every time anyone who uses WinGet, who read this, will think 'oh, yeah, that's the tool that Microsoft build their version of behind original author's back, while stringing him and ghosting for few months".

Realistically, though, a year from now nobody will care. I mean, I started in this industry in the "MS is outright evil" era. How many people did they screw over? If I remember correctly, there was even a guy who was owed a pile of stock/stock options and when he got cancer they suddenly went missing (no need to pay the dead guy!). Day by day, year by year, these misdeeds are seen as irrelevant. MS is a different com…

What Nestlé did was unforgivable. It was clearly lead by psychopaths at the time and we have no way of knowing that is not still true.

The problem is people have short memories and are driven by convenience so will conveniently forget how evil a company is when they show another side. Or sometimes they can continue being evil and people still just do nothing because it's so convenient (see Amazon).

There is not enough direct experience of the evil for our monkey brains to make sense of it. If you see someone kill a baby with their own two hands you will never trade with that person again, they are dead to you full stop. If a company knowingly kills babies by proxy and extorts mothers you get mad for an afternoon then you forget. We need to evolve as a species or find some way to make it more real.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#378
I've been learning a little bit about "the new Microsoft" and its new relationship with open source, and I think I get it now.

MSFT is treating open source communities and free F/OSS code contributions the way they might have treated blogging and IT forums in a prior era.

It's "developer community" and "power user" engagement. It's a hybrid product management and marketing function.

In this particular scenario, the winget product manager views the appget author as a "Windows enthusiast" of sorts, not a competitor, a peer, or a colleague. Just a "power user persona" of the Microsoft userbase.

So, when you understand this, reading the PM's email to him ahead of winget's launch makes more sense.

> We give appget a call out in our blog post too since we believe there will be space for different package managers on windows. You will see our package manager is based on GitHub too but obviously with our own implementation etc. our package manager will be open source too so obviously we would welcome any contribution from you.

Specifically: it's like getting called out explicitly by a forum mod, or being a frequent blog commenter who is mentioned by name in a blogger's main post.

It's "an honor" to have appget explicitly mentioned in an "official" Microsoft announcement. And to have your community work "inspire" so much of winget's design! So when the PM wrote the email, he probably wasn't even thinking it would feel like trolling. He was probably thinking, "isn't it cool we are doing this 'F/OSS collaboration thing' together? How 'New Microsoft' of us!"

And I can't say I blame him. Microsoft is just less smooth about their appropriation of F/OSS for marketing purposes. Other companies manage to do it without the developers noticing.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Used it in the days it required everything to run as root (Sudo). Then discovered homebrew and have never looked back. Every package I've looked at is better maintained on brew. Why do you think MP is superior?

Installing packages for your system as a non-root user is fairly broken and Homebrew jumps through a number of questionable hoops to make this work.

Like chown-ing /usr/local to what is supposed to be a non privileged user, reducing this security of everything in there. It’s like people don’t realize there’s a reason port (and apt and dnf and pretty much every package manager) requires “sudo” to install software. Homebrew has always felt poorly thought out to me and every time I try to use it again I come across some broken package that works fine in port.

Re: The Day AppGet Died

#380
post #80

Author here, Because it's sure to come up here is a comment I wrote on Reddit that clarifies somethings, I haven't updated the original article since I'm not sure what the etiquette for updating a highly shared article is. ------ Code being copied isn't an issue. I knew full well what it meant to release something opensource and I don't regret it one bit. What was copied with no credit is the foundation of the projec…

I flew to Seattle on December 5th to have a full day of interviews/meetings at Microsoft HQ. I met with four different people; three of the meetings were more like your typical interviews; the meeting with Andrew was more about what we should do once this is all over and how we would migrate AppGet’s process and infrastructure to be able to handle Microsoft’s scale. We talked about some of our options, but in general, I thought everything went well.

My last meeting ended at around 6 pm. I took an Uber to the airport and was back in Vancouver.

And then, I didn’t hear anything back from anyone at Microsoft for six months.

For what it's worth – and I'm not really sure whether it's helpful to say this, or whether it's even true – this situation often means "you didn't pass the interview."

The reason I mention it, is that it took an embarrassingly long time for me to understand this. Maybe it's common knowledge. But an identical situation happened to me at Magic Leap. I hesitate to mention their name, lest it sound like I'm calling them out or something, but I'm not. And in general I no longer feel negatively towards companies that end up doing that, so I don't think any particular stigma should be attached to Magic Leap for doing that.

I'm trying (and possibly failing) to share a personal experience of "I used to feel awful in situations like this; now I realize it's just business, and the decision of pass/fail has extraordinarily little to do with the skill of the programmer being interviewed, so don't take it as a sign of anything."

None of this is to undermine your overall point that it's generally not cool to ghost a candidate (to put it mildly), and that it's a doubly not-cool move to then clone the product of the candidate in question. But, it happens, and I just wanted to reassure you that yes, it does happen. It would've helped me to hear that at one point, so here it is, just in case.

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