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HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

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Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#71

Post by extr »

minouye wrote: post #53

This is a hard problem. And it makes a great interview question too! Recent PM interview question I've been using: You're the PM at Netflix handling the home screen. How do you determine how shows get promoted editorially vs algorithmically recommended? Walk through metrics/principles/trade-offs and how it impacts various parts of the biz. https://twitter.com/sriramk/status/1222547047846297600

This is a great question and I might steal this for future interviews. It's surprising how many of the people responding, despite being told optimizing for engagement is a cop-out, still jump to some kind of metric-based prescription. Or just jump right into throwing percentages for each content type (I mean, it's twitter, so sure, have a go).

My personal stab at this: this is really a strategic question. What are Netflix's long term goals? To be seen as HBO is, as a content-creator, or merely a content-provider? Both? What are the typical engagement rates for Netflix content vs purchased? What is the real, intangible (unmeasurable) objective we are maximizing for? Total hours watched? Or perceived value by consumer? Someone spending 25 hours a week with Netflix on still might perceive it as lower value than HBO that they spend 2 hours a week watching (and thus be more likely to cancel). Some forms of entertainment are easily substituted, as someone who uses TV for background noise wouldn't particularly mind to use Hulu for that purpose instead of Netflix. But a "must watch" show on HBO is just that, a must watch. Which customer do we want more of? More "background noise" customers implies a marginally higher infrastructure cost, while a more content focused strategy implies a higher cost for content production (and possibly a much more variable revenue stream, as people subscribe/cancel as their favorite show starts/stops airing). Maybe we want both, and we want to identify what kind of watcher a customer is, and then tailor their home screen to suit. Maybe one person has 90% Netflix Originals and the other has 10%.

If there is an answer here, it's to carefully weigh these strategic objectives and only then make changes to show promotion. Even then, it would be important to have some system of monitoring in place that allows you to confirm your changes are actually making measurable impact the objective in question (this may be very difficult, given an intangible goal of something like "increase Netflix mind-share". Probably a lot of marketing surveys and focus groups.) Straight-up engagement rate is just one of the many things to track here, and increasing it at any cost might not even be in Netflix's long term best interest.

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#72

Post by ikeboy »

Is there any halfway decent third party recommendation system? I've got a list of everything I've watched in the last year or so since I've started tracking it, plus older TV shows I've seen in full. I'd be interested in manually inputting that with ratings into some system where it can recommend what else I'd like given everyone else's data.

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#73

Post by scollet »

heavymark wrote: post #6

This is like when Apple said their Music platform would be more human curated rather than algorithms like competitors such as Spotify. But the reason why I love Spotify's recommendations and not Apple's is because Spotify focuses on algorithms and does them so well. Same with Netflix, in my experience they truly know what I will like to watch, they seem to know what shows I'll love and what shows I won't love but wil…

Spotify also makes it seamless to tunnel down a rabbit hole and then back up. I've done this across genres from one seed song while still enjoying and occasionally sampling new music along the way.

Netflix bothers me because they have a marketing bend that creates your tunnels for you.

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#74

Post by jtreminio »

romanovtexas wrote: post #67

HBO is betting on their content to be superior right now, but there are some obvious areas where the streaming experience isn't on par with Netflix. No 4K/HDR, one plan costing a premium that limits simultaneous streaming to only 3 screens, etc. Hope that they catch up eventually else it's gonna be hard to compete solely based on content.

Netflix, Disney+, and Apple TV+ have also realized that adding more language tracks to their content is a _must_.

My family's viewership of Amazon Prime Video is severely limited because they refuse to add Spanish audio to their content. They have a few Spanish-language shows and movies but it's slim pickings.

HBO has no excuse on this, imho. I _know_ they have Spanish audio for every single one of their shows and movies - when we had cable TV we could switch language track in seconds, and this is not counting their Spanish-language channel that played in Spanish by default.

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#76

Post by laurex »

slfnflctd wrote: post #64
j-kent wrote: post #5

Lately it feels like Netflix's algorithm is "just show Netflix produced content". Maybe I'm being nostalgic but I really miss the old shooting star recommendation system where you rated content and got similar likes from other viewers.

Nostalgic? No, you're displaying a reasonable response to a screwy situation. Did everyone just forget about the Netflix Prize? [ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Netflix_Prize ] There was a brief time when they had the absolute best recommendation algorithm on the planet. It was intentionally replaced by something utterly different which is geared to simply steer everyone to IP that they own. It is not remotely similar…

The problem with a recommendation engine is that it breaks down when content options are limited. In Netflix's early days of streaming, they had a similar approach to content as they did with DVDs, i.e. capitalizing on the long tail and offering an enormous selection. That proved to be inefficient for streaming because there's a minimum bar at which rightsholders will sell licences, and it's far higher than just the price of a few DVDs. Thus, Netflix switched to a more limited acquisition model, and then began a more aggressive program of content creation to effectively gate its offer from competing services. The upside of this for consumers has been a shift by many talented creators into series-style content; the downside is that the market for independently-produced films has bottomed out considerably.

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#77

Post by [deleted] »

romanovtexas wrote: post #67

HBO is betting on their content to be superior right now, but there are some obvious areas where the streaming experience isn't on par with Netflix. No 4K/HDR, one plan costing a premium that limits simultaneous streaming to only 3 screens, etc. Hope that they catch up eventually else it's gonna be hard to compete solely based on content.

[deleted]

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#78

Post by telesilla »

jtreminio wrote: post #74
romanovtexas wrote: post #67

HBO is betting on their content to be superior right now, but there are some obvious areas where the streaming experience isn't on par with Netflix. No 4K/HDR, one plan costing a premium that limits simultaneous streaming to only 3 screens, etc. Hope that they catch up eventually else it's gonna be hard to compete solely based on content.

Netflix, Disney+, and Apple TV+ have also realized that adding more language tracks to their content is a _must_. My family's viewership of Amazon Prime Video is severely limited because they refuse to add Spanish audio to their content. They have a few Spanish-language shows and movies but it's slim pickings. HBO has no excuse on this, imho. I _know_ they have Spanish audio for every single one of their shows and mo…

HBO's Spanish options are fantastic, I watch in a Spanish-speaking country and it's been a great service with good quality dubs and subtitles. We've run out of content though, I don't think we get all what the US gets.

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#79

Post by axaxs »

As someone with both, both have their place, but HBO is a strong offering. HBO in-house content is way better, and they have a lot more good movies available to watch on demand. I'd say Netflix wins strictly at UI, and variety overall.

That said, I'm curious how the future will play out. I already have Hulu, HBO, Disney Plus, Netflix, and Amazon Prime. The cost and variety is getting out of hand, and I don't even have time to watch them all(I use Hulu the most, and Amazon the least, fwiw). Are we going to soon see reconsolidation of services, back to the cable model?

Re: HBO Max taking on Netflix with human curation instead of relying on algorithms

#80

Post by Barrin92 »

heavymark wrote: post #6

This is like when Apple said their Music platform would be more human curated rather than algorithms like competitors such as Spotify. But the reason why I love Spotify's recommendations and not Apple's is because Spotify focuses on algorithms and does them so well. Same with Netflix, in my experience they truly know what I will like to watch, they seem to know what shows I'll love and what shows I won't love but wil…

> But the reason why I love Spotify's recommendations and not Apple's is because Spotify focuses on algorithms and does them so well.

The article literally makes the point that Spotify's system is much more human curated than Netflix because it heavily relies on human curated lists that are shared between users.

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