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France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

reuters.com

71–80 of 100 posts

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#71
post #68
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It HCQ doesn't work, why is it the common first line of defense used internationally? Why does scholar.google.com list so many papers showing that it's effective?

I don't know why I'm getting downvoted. Anyone can verify what I'm saying if they go to scholar.google.com

Because your statement is misleading. Some countries are are using it more frequently than the US, but Germany and the UK prescribe it much less. Italy had the highest prescription rates, but are no longer using it. While France prescribed it more often than the US but are also stopping.

Lastly, the argument of "if countries outside the US are prescribing it, it must work" is just nonsensical. Doctors prescribing a drug is not evidence a drug works.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.statista.com/chart/amp/2141...

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#72
post #55
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The first symptoms aren't necessarily the shortness of breath. In my case I had a week of mild fever before the shortness of breath kicked in. Fever isn't severe. Difficulty to breath is. You can have a policy to be treated when you get the first symptoms, but before these symptoms are severe.

The difficulty there is you're talking about giving it to a lot of people in an outpatient setting. This is the worst case in terms of risk trade-offs: Without being admitted as a patient, you will not be monitored as closely especially for coronary complications. Since you'll be giving it to people before the onset of severe symptoms, you'll be risking side-effects giving it to people who might have been fine withou…

But then the side-effects are pretty low no? How long has it been in the WHO basic medicine category without concerns for its safety, 50 years or so?

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#73
post #46

This is what I appreciate in YC feed. You got far more better information gathered in one than the MSN article shared initially.

For better information, I would suggest following the credentialed scientific experts on Twitter. You can get information straight from the very best people in their field. Here, I feel it's a bit of a crap shoot, and half the comments are misinformed & happy to share it.

Haha, damned Poe's law, hope this was sarcasm!

During Galileo's time most credentialed experts believed the sun to spin around the earth.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> My skepticism was founded entirely on seeing who was promoting this idea The proponent has no effect on the null hypothesis. What was needed was a RCT: no results are out for any, at this point.

If the snake oil salesman presents a new, improved brand of snake oil, skepticism is wise.

The salesman being the medical establishment, and the new improved snake oil being Remdesivir?

I read you loud and clear, buddy.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#75
post #4

Meh. It wouldn't surprise me if these trials are being run by the makers of Remdesivir or some other drug, and they're purposely killing folks to make their treatment look more effective. It's a pretty common tactic in the pharma industry for drug makers to do trials with enormous doses of their competitors products to make them look more dangerous by comparison, and given that this whole thing has turned into a mult…

[dead]

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#76
post #4

Meh. It wouldn't surprise me if these trials are being run by the makers of Remdesivir or some other drug, and they're purposely killing folks to make their treatment look more effective. It's a pretty common tactic in the pharma industry for drug makers to do trials with enormous doses of their competitors products to make them look more dangerous by comparison, and given that this whole thing has turned into a mult…

Fuck you are right, remember just reading that Gilead gave some 250K to the author of one of the studies against HCQ. IF that is not a conflict of interest then what is?

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

HCQ has been around for 70 years. Remdesivir's issue is that everyone gets to be the guinea pig. Sometimes it's better to go with the devil you know.

> HCQ has been around for 70 years. Not in an antiviral context, and certainly not for SARS-CoV-2.

So? The point here is the safety of it, plus there's research going back to 2006 about its effectiveness for other Coronaviruses. I mean do whatever you want to do, but there's a reason most people in government are taking it. In my country they privately take it, while publicly not endorsing it to prevent shortages

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#78

A shame, since the Lancet paper has problems[1][2] in particular related to the baseline of the HCQ-treated vs non-HCQ treated patients. And by admission of the authors themselves, it is not a substitute of a RCT. And this before the results of the Minnesota trial are out. At this point I hope those are negative, so that it does not show that countries are overreacting. [1] https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020…

If it had any effect on covid-19, it'd be very obvious by now. There isn't some massive conspiracy here, it just doesn't work. The reason trials have stopped is because France, Italy, Belgium & the UK have seen worse outcomes generally, directly because of it. I don't get the 'it needs to be taken before symptoms!' argument - like we can possibly give a immunosuppressant with non-negligible side-effects (e.g. arrythm…

It's obvious since end of February that the only usage is in prevention. Give to all risk persons 3 weeks before. That's the Indian advisory:

https://www.icmr.gov.in/pdf/covid/techdoc/V5_Revised_advisor...

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#79

A shame, since the Lancet paper has problems[1][2] in particular related to the baseline of the HCQ-treated vs non-HCQ treated patients. And by admission of the authors themselves, it is not a substitute of a RCT. And this before the results of the Minnesota trial are out. At this point I hope those are negative, so that it does not show that countries are overreacting. [1] https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2020…

If it had any effect on covid-19, it'd be very obvious by now. There isn't some massive conspiracy here, it just doesn't work. The reason trials have stopped is because France, Italy, Belgium & the UK have seen worse outcomes generally, directly because of it. I don't get the 'it needs to be taken before symptoms!' argument - like we can possibly give a immunosuppressant with non-negligible side-effects (e.g. arrythm…

Haha, then why did China, Russia and Japan use it so successfully? Let's not forget we live in geopolitically very interesting times, and that the WHO is pretty much under the influence of China.

Re: France, Italy, Belgium stop hydroxychloroquine use for Covid-19 on safety fears

#80
post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difficulty there is you're talking about giving it to a lot of people in an outpatient setting. This is the worst case in terms of risk trade-offs: Without being admitted as a patient, you will not be monitored as closely especially for coronary complications. Since you'll be giving it to people before the onset of severe symptoms, you'll be risking side-effects giving it to people who might have been fine withou…

But then the side-effects are pretty low no? How long has it been in the WHO basic medicine category without concerns for its safety, 50 years or so?

Most of the side-effects aren't severe. The worst cited are usually blindness and deadly heart arrhythmia. The problem is when you start giving it out to a lot of people, you start to see those low-incidence side-effects increasingly often.

It is a basic and important medicine. It's not that there are no concerns about its safety; it's that the safety concerns are well-known. Those are distinctly different statements.

(As an aside, for example, Tylenol and aspirin can both be quite harmful, but under what conditions they're dangerous is well-known so they are widely used pretty safely. Even so, you still find people inadvertently destroying their livers with Tylenol/paracetemol when they don't realize two OTC medicines contain them and overdose).

So then the question is how much harm are you doing by giving people the drug (under some set of circumstances) vs how great a benefit might someone derive from it.

Clearly on one side, if you gave it to everyone as a prophylactic, that'd likely cause more harm than good. Perhaps, you give it to people who have tested positive but are not admitted to the hospital. Or you can give it to only those who are admitted. Or you can give it only to people who are doing poorly.

Presuming the harmfulness of the medicine is well known you can run some easy hypothetical numbers about how many people will have serious harm or death from receiving it on a wide scale. We have a rough idea of the range of people who will die or have serious cases of COVID. The only thing left is the possible benefit people may get from the medicine.

As of now there is no indication that the benefit is worth the harm to give it out to people in a wide-scale fashion. Additionally, the current studies don't even support giving it to people who are in-patients. In most studies, patients receiving it fare worse than those not.

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