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Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

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Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#651

Post by kerkeslager »

akerl_ wrote: post #647
kerkeslager wrote: post #639

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you're certainly leaving out big parts of the equation. Like: they can court new users and try to repair burned bridges. Or: the people who quit, and the narrative around why, certainly affects their ability to court new users. But ultimately, you might be right--maybe the net effect of not apologizing would be negligibly different from the net effect of apologizing. I don't have numbers to say you're wrong, bu…

I’m not sure how you expect to have a productive conversation when, in this and parallel comments, you’ve made several insinuations that I’m a conscienceless lizard person. But to be clear: Triplebyte’s specific situation is a an ethical issue only in respect to the fact that they planned to enable by default for existing users. That’s a bad move. They’ve stopped the bad move. I’m more interested in the overall patte…

> I’m not sure how you expect to have a productive conversation when, in this and parallel comments, you’ve made several insinuations that I’m a conscienceless lizard person.

Your reaction that perhaps corporations shouldn't apologize when they do something wrong if it have any selfish benefit, does lack conscience and is a wholly inappropriate reaction to this situation. Discussing the self-centered strategic merits of apologizing from the perspective of a sociopath isn't a productive conversation.

However, I'm not one to write people off based on one interaction. Just because you've reacted without conscience in one situation doesn't mean you would do so in all situations.

> But to be clear: Triplebyte’s specific situation is a an ethical issue only in respect to the fact that they planned to enable by default for existing users. That’s a bad move. They’ve stopped the bad move.

There are more ethical issues than that--they haven't stopped them all.

> I’m more interested in the overall pattern of “company does thing, people disagree with thing, people express outrage to company, company issues statement”. Which in many cases has zero ethical components.

Which is irrelevant in this case, because this case does have multiple ethical components.

And, more to the point, this is still an ethical question. Apologies are never about benefiting the person apologizing. Apologies are inherently an ethical action--if you claim that the company didn't do anything wrong, then they shouldn't apologize. Not because it doesn't benefit them, but because lying about being sorry isn't ethical.

"Should a company lie and pretend to be sorry when they haven't done anything wrong?" is still an ethical question, and you're looking at it from the perspective of selfish gain is still an inappropriate way to look at it.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#652

Post by kerkeslager »

akerl_ wrote: post #644
kerkeslager wrote: post #640

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I actually kind of agree with the comment you’re responding to, but I don’t interpret it the same way you do. I think akerl_ is saying that companies shouldn't bother apologizing when they do something wrong and get caught. I think that's some "lizard person school of business" shit that has no place in a civilized society.

I’d like to live in a world where businesses apologize and adjust their behavior when they make mistakes. I think it would be great if they’d do that regardless of internet mobs. My point above is that I don’t think internet mobs incentivize businesses to behave that way, and in fact it seems that apologizing to the mob, or adjusting behavior in response to things the mob does not approve off, are counterproductive f…

> I’d like to live in a world where businesses apologize and adjust their behavior when they make mistakes. I think it would be great if they’d do that regardless of internet mobs.

Okay, great, so we're in agreement.

The incentives applied by dissatisfied customers aren't about getting companies to apologize: it's about getting them to behave in a manner such that they don't have to apologize. If you want to discuss whether there are better strategies that dissatisfied customers might employ, that's something I'd be happy to discuss.

If you actually want businesses to apologize and adjust their behavior as you claim, then it makes sense to look at how customers can make that happen.

Point being: if your goal is to actually help people harmed by corporations, calling those people "internet mobs" who "ragequit" and then analyzing whether it's profitable to apologize to them is a pretty strange way of communicating that goal.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#653

Post by akerl_ »

kerkeslager wrote: post #652
akerl_ wrote: post #644

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d like to live in a world where businesses apologize and adjust their behavior when they make mistakes. I think it would be great if they’d do that regardless of internet mobs. My point above is that I don’t think internet mobs incentivize businesses to behave that way, and in fact it seems that apologizing to the mob, or adjusting behavior in response to things the mob does not approve off, are counterproductive f…

> I’d like to live in a world where businesses apologize and adjust their behavior when they make mistakes. I think it would be great if they’d do that regardless of internet mobs. Okay, great, so we're in agreement. The incentives applied by dissatisfied customers aren't about getting companies to apologize: it's about getting them to behave in a manner such that they don't have to apologize. If you want to discuss…

To be clear: I do not think that the behavior shown by internet mobs is effective at causing businesses to behave better.

I’m not looking to debate whether or not you agree with my word choice for “the people on the internet who loudly protest companies who do stuff they disagree with, and stop using those companies’ services out of these disagreements”.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#654

Post by akerl_ »

kerkeslager wrote: post #651
akerl_ wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m not sure how you expect to have a productive conversation when, in this and parallel comments, you’ve made several insinuations that I’m a conscienceless lizard person. But to be clear: Triplebyte’s specific situation is a an ethical issue only in respect to the fact that they planned to enable by default for existing users. That’s a bad move. They’ve stopped the bad move. I’m more interested in the overall patte…

> I’m not sure how you expect to have a productive conversation when, in this and parallel comments, you’ve made several insinuations that I’m a conscienceless lizard person. Your reaction that perhaps corporations shouldn't apologize when they do something wrong if it have any selfish benefit, does lack conscience and is a wholly inappropriate reaction to this situation. Discussing the self-centered strategic merits…

I appreciate your candor in pointing out that you don’t consider my perspective to be appropriate.

I suspect, in light of that, that we’ve bottomed out the utility of this thread.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#655

Post by kerkeslager »

akerl_ wrote: post #653
kerkeslager wrote: post #652

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I’d like to live in a world where businesses apologize and adjust their behavior when they make mistakes. I think it would be great if they’d do that regardless of internet mobs. Okay, great, so we're in agreement. The incentives applied by dissatisfied customers aren't about getting companies to apologize: it's about getting them to behave in a manner such that they don't have to apologize. If you want to discuss…

To be clear: I do not think that the behavior shown by internet mobs is effective at causing businesses to behave better. I’m not looking to debate whether or not you agree with my word choice for “the people on the internet who loudly protest companies who do stuff they disagree with, and stop using those companies’ services out of these disagreements”.

> To be clear: I do not think that the behavior shown by internet mobs is effective at causing businesses to behave better.

Neither do I, and I'd be interested to hear how you think people could do better.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#659

Post by bmy78 »

While this does seem like a heartfelt apology from the CEO, this incident is a reminder of how much of our privacy we willingly hand over to companies and how much power they wield over us. It is immensely disturbing.

I will not be using Triplebyte’s services.

Re: Tell HN: Triplebyte reverses, emails apology

#660

Post by xiphias2 »

erik_seaberg wrote: post #619
xiphias2 wrote: post #593

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Setting up a country based IP filter is trivial if they don't want to serve EU and California.

They could filter traffic, but they might have some profiles for users who later moved to the EU. But I'm asking whether GDPR authorities have any recourse to take against a US corporation that has not expanded into the EU.

https://gdpr.eu/companies-outside-of-europe/

If Triplebyte doesn't even do IP filtering for signups, they are servicing EU citizens. Actually I told them that I don't have US VISA, so the ,,local golf course we site'' case doesn't apply.

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