Hey, Facebook VP of Integrity here (I work on this stuff). This WSJ story cites old research and falsely suggests we aren’t invested in fighting polarization. The reality is we didn’t adopt some of the product suggestions cited because we pursued alternatives we believed are more effective. What’s undeniable is we’ve made significant changes to the way FB works to improve the integrity of our products, such as fundam…
Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
781–790 of 1001 posts
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#782Here's the paragraph I found most damning. It would make me want to assign liability to Facebook. > The high number of extremist groups was concerning, the presentation says. Worse was Facebook’s realization that its algorithms were responsible for their growth. The 2016 presentation states that “64% of all extremist group joins are due to our recommendation tools” and that most of the activity came from the platform…
Hey, Facebook VP here (I work on this). We’ve made some meaningful changes to address this since 2016. We’ve strengthened our enforcement in groups and have been actively working on our recommendation tools as well, for example removing groups with extremist content that violates our policies, from recommendations.
> “64% of all extremist group joins are due to our recommendation tools”
How does Facebook currently define extremist group and how does that contrast with the definition of extremist group used in the presentation?
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#783Hey, Facebook VP of Integrity here (I work on this stuff). This WSJ story cites old research and falsely suggests we aren’t invested in fighting polarization. The reality is we didn’t adopt some of the product suggestions cited because we pursued alternatives we believed are more effective. What’s undeniable is we’ve made significant changes to the way FB works to improve the integrity of our products, such as fundam…
10 short years ago, nobody could have imagined that huge swathes of the population could have been swayed to accept non-scientific statements as fact because of social media. Now we're struggling to deal with existential threats like climate change because a lot of people get their worldview from Facebook. Algorithms have decided that they fall on one side of the polarization divide and should receive a powerful dose of fake science and denialism ... all because clicks and engagement.
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#784Hey, Facebook VP of Integrity here (I work on this stuff). This WSJ story cites old research and falsely suggests we aren’t invested in fighting polarization. The reality is we didn’t adopt some of the product suggestions cited because we pursued alternatives we believed are more effective. What’s undeniable is we’ve made significant changes to the way FB works to improve the integrity of our products, such as fundam…
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#785Earlier quoted context omitted.
> This presupposes some kind of universal value function. Sorry, I did not mean to suggest that some comments are intrinsically more valuable. But we do want to sort comments so that, on average, the distance between the "ideal" order for any given reader and the actual order is minimized, don't we? > This is like perfect is the enemy of good counterargument. I'm not trying to argue anything here, I just wanted your…
>But we do want to sort comments so that, on average, the distance between the "ideal" order for any given reader and the actual order is minimized, don't we? why? who cares? do you not know how to skim and skip irrelevant text? >I just wanted your thoughts on how this could be implemented effectively you could think of any number of ways to vet comments. we live in the future after all; you could require a minimum l…
Ignoring inflammatory content can be more taxing to people than you pretend, and moderators and flagging are too slow to act. It's not the end of the world, but it's annoying enough that I would consider alternative services.
A forum is nothing without its users, and a forum that puts its users first shouldn't irritate its users with off-putting content without good reason.
> you could think of any number of ways to vet comments.
Alright, I was just checking whether you had any new ideas, and it seems that you do not.
> you're wrong that there are fewer submissions to arxiv
HN receives at least twice as many submissions per month, and an order of magnitude more comments. This makes the arXiv a very poor analogy for HN.
> you're also wrong that it's moderated
From [0] (see also, [1]):
> All submissions are subject to a moderation process that verifies material is appropriate and topical. Material that contains offensive language, non-scientific content, or is plagiarized may be removed.
Looks a lot like they have moderation to me.
> i also don't understand how heavy moderation is a counterpoint
If you already heavily filter by quality, then the order in which posts are presented obviously becomes much less important.
> yc is one of the most successful vcs in the world - they can't afford moderators?
HN does have an excellent moderation team. They just aren't anywhere near as stringent as the arXiv, on quality, on politeness, or on any number of other characteristics.
If HN was as heavily moderated as the arXiv, then they wouldn't need a voting system either. It'd be a much colder place, though, which is probably why they don't do that.
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#786Earlier quoted context omitted.
> it's a flaw in their business model, and it's one that can that be fixed (i.e. "innovate a better business model") Doesn't that assume that there is a better business model?
Yes. They're based on users voluntarily giving payment for services rendered and, importantly, being satisfied with the transaction.
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#787Earlier quoted context omitted.
It appears to me that the parent post was criticizing the ad-based business model - not endorsing it.
I'm complaining about the structure of the dialog around this issue, not casting aspersions on the parent post's argument itself. It's impossible to have a reasonable discussion when the terminology in use is strongly prejudiced against one of the key parties in the relationship.
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#788I think this is perhaps an example, on a grand scale, on why you (generally) can't use technology to solve cultural problems. Before the Battle of Trebia, Hannibal wanted to set up an ambush for the Romans. He gathered 200 of his best troops together, and told them (a) that they were squad leaders; (b) they each should pick 10 of their friends to form their individual squads; and (c) the plan of attack. A modern pers…
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#789Earlier quoted context omitted.
The fundamental flaw is this: The primary content no user wants to see any every user agent would filter out is ads . Since ads are the primary way sites stay in business, they are obligated to fight against user agents or other intermediary systems. The ultimate problem is that Facebook doesn't want to show you good, enriching content from your friends and family. They want to show you ads. The good content is just…
I sure am tired of hearing about "the fundamental flaw" in empowering people. What you describe is not a flaw in empowerment, it's a flaw in their business model, and it's one that can that be fixed (i.e. "innovate a better business model"). Can we stop propagating the idea that people who do not want to use their limited bandwidth and processing power to rasterize someone else's advertising are somehow "flawed"? The…
Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive
#790Disclaimer: I started working at FB recently. Consider the following model scenario. You are a PM at a discussion board startup in Elbonia. There are too many discussions at every single time, so you personalize the list for each user, showing only discussions she is more likely to interact with (it's a crude indication of user interest, but it's tough to measure it accurately). One day, your brilliant data scientist…
I miss the days when my feed wasn't curated at all and just sorted by most recent post. The whole point of having friends and being able to (un)follow people is to I can curate my own feed. I don't use Facebook anymore except for hobby related groups like my motorcycling group.
I deleted all of my old posts to reduce the amount of content FB has to lure my friends into looking at ads. But because of the covid-19 pandemic I was using facebook again to keep in contact with people. Now that restrictions are eased in my country I can see people again, and have deleted my facebook posts.