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Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

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Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#411
post #72
post #17

I've always wondered how such discussions go in company meetings where some product/feature has harmful effect of something/someone but is good for the business of the company. I cannot believe that everyone is ethicality challenged, only perhaps the people in control. So what goes through that minds of people who don't agree with such decisions. Do they keep quiet, just worry about the payroll, convince themselves t…

I've typically found my employment via companies who deal with a variety of contracts, some of them for weapons or defense contractors. I could go down the rabbit hole of chasing down all those contracts and would probably find that many of the products my company makes get sold to groups and causes that I don't support. But in the end; I've gotta eat. Do I want to throw away my career which is 99% unrelated to the S…

Are you actively looking for employment elsewhere so that you can transition away from supporting harmful causes? Or are you using the excuse that you have to eat as a reason not to do hard things in your life?

I have used that excuse myself. I'm trying to get better at not using it.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Studies on persuading people out of prejudice do exist (see e.g. https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~broockma/kalla_broockman_reduc... ). The problem is that the approaches are not as emotionally satisfying as just affirming your moral superiority and calling people bigots, so not many people do it (though some do, search for "deep canvasing"). Abortion is tricky because once you recognize the life of the embryo as a value…

I think abortion is a lot easier when you frame the argument around suffering. I think part of the problem with abortion is the left argues that "it is not a life" which is generally a weak argument. It's better to accept/concede that you are ending life, but doing so without suffering before there's a neural net that can recognize anything - I think that's the important bit (and why third trimester abortions are ban…

> I think abortion is a lot easier when you frame the argument around suffering.

Really? I think it becomes much more difficult. It invites arguments for infanticide (see the 2013 Giubilini paper on after-birth abortion for a famous example of this). The same arguments concerning a woman who is not able to take care of a child apply equally well after birth if suffering is the only consideration, because it's entirely possible to end the life of the baby in a painless manner. As someone who is pro-life, I've generally found the suffering angle to be the least compelling of the pro-choice counterarguments.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#413
post #215

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> parachutes Parachutes kill people? I thought they do the opposite. Maybe firearms or alcohol make better examples.

The habitual use of any of the above will increase your chances of untimely death.

But in the case of parachutes, it's not the device, it's the activity. I know it's splitting hairs, but it's important, especially when it comes to assigning moral responsibility to manufacturers.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#414
post #17

I've always wondered how such discussions go in company meetings where some product/feature has harmful effect of something/someone but is good for the business of the company. I cannot believe that everyone is ethicality challenged, only perhaps the people in control. So what goes through that minds of people who don't agree with such decisions. Do they keep quiet, just worry about the payroll, convince themselves t…

The Banality of Evil.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#415
As a total outsider following this from a distance, I sort of feel for Facebook and other social media platforms facing this problem -- they've run up against a fundamental issue for which there doesn't seem to be any satisfying solution. Misinformation and propaganda are rampant on their platforms definitely, and echo chambers that reinforce divisive worldviews have probably deepened real societal divisions, but how do you actually implement a policy to stop this? What is "propaganda"? What is "misinformation"? The entire core of Facebook's existence is advertising, which means user engagement and reach is the only thing that drives your bottom line; they want to drive users to Facebook and keep them there, and keep them engaged. They've just happened to discover a universal human truth along the way, which is that people like feeling validated, and people like being a member of a tribe. Facebook is the way it is because thats what users want, whether they will admit to it or not.

Anything that Facebook does will be perceived as making a political and/or moral statement, which they obviously are trying very hard not to do, because as soon as you take a position you alienate half of the population (at least in the US). They've apparently decided to go the route of burying their heads in the sand instead of trying to make things less tribal and divisive, which in all honesty is a pretty understandable position to take, and yet even while actively trying not to piss off conservatives they have still landed in hot water over perceived favoritism towards the left. They are damned if they do and damned if they don't.

So honestly, what is the proposed solution here? What would you do if you were in Zuckerberg's shoes? Do you campaign for regulations that take this issue off of your hands but that let the government call the shots somehow? Do you look at your board members with a straight face and tell them you're going to tank user engagement for some higher, squishy moral purpose for which there is no clear payoff?

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#416

Reddit has the same issues of division and does not do anything as a company to sort people. It all comes down to the individuals themselves. Is division really all that new or can we just see it more now?

> Is division really all that new or can we just see it more now?

In the article Facebook themselves say measured the increase and knew they caused it with their algorithms.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#417
post #98

The problem really is platforms that give people content to please them. An algorithm selects content that you are likely to agree with or that you have shown previous interest. This only causes people to get reinforced in their beliefs and this leads to polarization. For example, when I browse videos on Youtube I will only get democratic content (even though I am from Poland). Seems as soon as you click on couple en…

This is the exact same behavior I have noticed from YouTube as well. I miss the "old" YouTube around 2011, when it was a terrific place to discover new and interesting videos. If I watched a video on mountain biking, let's say, then the list of suggested videos all revolved around that topic. But in today's YouTube, the suggested content for the same mountain biking video is all unrelated, often extremely polarizing,…

Exactly. I remember clicking on homepage to get selection of new, interesting videos. Now I just get exactly the same every time I click. Useless. I would like to discover new topics not get rehash of same ones.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#418
post #332

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, this does give me much more confidence in Facebook's internal governance, even if the platform often bows to media demands. Much to the Chagrin of many on HN, Facebook is, and has been a fairly open platform to people of all convictions, backgrounds, and political stripes. Even if it has been unsteady handed at times. This, as well as their sorting algorithm may well be contributing to the collapse of insti…

> political dialogues That sounds lovely. Fake news (the actual kind), name-calling, absurd conspiracy-theorizing, memes that remove all nuance from complex issues, botnets that amplify anti-science/anti-intellectual nonsense ... aren't political dialogue, they're the breakdown of it.

They're indicative of a collapse of consensus on the part of society. It could well be argued that prior to our current political era, especially in the US, that the political domain was largely constrained to a discourse on cultural aesthetics, wherein the Democrats and and Republicans argued over trivialities (on a broader national, not individual respect) such as abortion, marriage, and immigration, while they operated on an implicit consensus concerning foreign policy, and had a functional stalemate in terms of the size of the state, farming out many of their policy decisions to thinktanks, corporate donors, and well-established bureaucrats within our regulatory bodies

America's role as international security guarantor, its trade policies, and its government's role in domestic affairs was never really up for debate, and it only really changed stepwise in a stochastic manner, responding to situations and incentives day-by-day with no conscious consideration to the role of America or its state on a broader scale.

What we're seeing now, is large portions of the population coming to realize that that existing bipartian components of the political consensus - which I believe to be a legacy of the cold war, no longer serves their cultural or economic interests.

This process is naturally fractious, chaotic, sometimes violent, and full of dirty tricks, because politics isn't just about flavor of the month policies anymore. We're in the process of reinventing who we collectively are, and what we want to be. As a result, we're running across real, fundamentally irreconcilable political and moral differences that have been buried for decades, as well as confronting the failures and controversies of our past.

Many of those fundamental agreements settle neatly along class, racial, and professional boundaries. Others, not so much.

Science denial and anti-intellectualism is the natural result, because much of science communication has become a carrier mechanism for policy prescriptions predicated upon society operating under a specific ideological consensus, when in fact someone of a different political persuasion might objectively consume the scientific data and come to a different policy conclusion based on the same data.

For the less educated, who encounter proposals from scientists they consider to be politically unworkable, and which might rightfully be considered manipulatively framed, it is easier to reject entire specialized fields of research out of hand than to investigate further and attempt to conceive of alternative proposals because they lack the tools to engage with the information effectively to begin with.

All of this is messy, but it constotutes a real political dialogue on the part of society.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wow, Cloudflare's 1.1.1.1 DNS server sets up a man-in-the-middle (broken cert gives it away) and serves a 403 Forbidden page when clicking on this link. Verified that 8.8.8.8 works fine.

I don't want to derail the discussion too much either, but anyone curious about the reasoning can see this comment from CloudFlare [0] >We don’t block archive.is or any other domain via 1.1.1.1. Doing so, we believe, would violate the integrity of DNS and the privacy and security promises we made to our users when we launched the service. >Archive.is’s authoritative DNS servers return bad results to 1.1.1.1 when we q…

I'm not sure if it's a separate issue, but I've noticed 1.1.1.1 sometimes can't resolve my bank. Adding 8.8.8.8 as an alternate DNS service resolves the issue for me. I don't know if it's just balancing the requests or only using 8.8.8.8 if the primary fails. I'd like to know the answer to that.

Re: Facebook executives shut down efforts to make the site less divisive

#420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think abortion is a lot easier when you frame the argument around suffering. I think part of the problem with abortion is the left argues that "it is not a life" which is generally a weak argument. It's better to accept/concede that you are ending life, but doing so without suffering before there's a neural net that can recognize anything - I think that's the important bit (and why third trimester abortions are ban…

> I think abortion is a lot easier when you frame the argument around suffering. Really? I think it becomes much more difficult. It invites arguments for infanticide (see the 2013 Giubilini paper on after-birth abortion for a famous example of this). The same arguments concerning a woman who is not able to take care of a child apply equally well after birth if suffering is the only consideration, because it's entirel…

I do think you're right that there's an extra element beyond just suffering (otherwise you can argue that killing infants instantly is okay if they don't notice and they're not yet self-aware).

I think it's a mixture of suffering and having a neural network formed enough for ...something? I have an intuitive feeling that it's wrong to kill infants before they're self-aware even if 'done painlessly', but I don't feel that way about a blastocyst or a fetus without a sufficiently formed neural network that can suffer.

I recognize this isn't perfectly consistent though and I don't have a great answer for why.

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