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Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

marilynburnsmathblog.com

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Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#231
post #224
post #214

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> you meant the more specific term No, I meant what I said. The fact that iteration is a kind of composition is true, but it's a tangent from the point I was trying to make, which is that infix notation is a Really Bad Idea. No one in their right mind would use it if they were not indoctrinated into it. > "the successor function is not a composition of anything" is definitely false That's news to me. I genuinely thou…

> Multiplication is a composition of addition, and addition is a composition of the successor function. The successor function is not a composition of anything, but you can define it in terms of set theory if you don't want to simply accept it as a primitive. But sets are functions too. > the point I was trying to make, which is that infix notation is a Really Bad Idea Not to be snarky, but, reading these two (from y…

> I still can't see anything about the first one that indicates the point that infix notation is a bad idea.

I didn't make a very good argument for it. I really intended that to be more of a throwaway rant than a serious critique. But since you ask...

There are two problems with infix:

1. It's hard to parse. It requires precedence rules which are not apparent in the notation. In actual practice, the precedence rules vary from context to context and this causes real problems. It's an unnecessary cognitive burden that pays very little in the way of dividends (a few less pen strokes or key strokes).

2. It obscures the fact that infix operators are just syntactic sugar for function applications. It leads people to think that there is something fundamentally different about a+b that distinguishes it from sum(a,b) and this in turn leads to a ton of confusion.

> that's clearly not what you meant

Indeed not. I meant the successor operator as defined in the Peano axioms.

> you quoted

Yeah, sorry about that. When I first replied, I thought you were the same person who posted the grandparent comment. My first draft response turned out to be completely inappropriate when I realized you were a different person, but some of my initial mindset apparently leaked into the revised comment. My apologies.

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#232
post #46
post #4

This is a lovely (edit: having been in similar shoes, also terrifying-in-the-moment) example of a broader problem in teaching mathematics: the language we use to describe mathematical reasoning is a natural language, like English or Latin, and therefore full of the sorts of bizarre irregularities you'd find in a natural language. Mathematics is also a language about rigorously and precisely defined objects. The conce…

I think it's important to know that this really isn't true. Maths at all times is a subjective language. Maths notation is imprecise "intentionally confused", or just ad-hoc defined all the time. When you see something like. f(x) = summation(x^n, n=0, 10) We conveniently ignore that this polynomial is defined at x=0 despite 0^0 not making any sense by ad-hoc defining 0^0 = 1 in this context.

That's just lazy, and I haven't ever read a good text use summation where any of the terms would be outright undefined if evaluated.

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#233
It's easy to see that this cannot be a valid definition for fraction addition because applying it along with the rule that a/b = (ak)/(bk) gives a contradiction:

3/7 = 2/4 (+) 1/3 = 1/2 (+) 1/3 = 2/5, absurd because 2/5 != 3/7

Once this is realized, it's easy to see that the correct formulation for the "table joining" operation used here is a weighted arithmetic mean, i.e. a(/)b (+) c(/)d = weighted arithmetic mean of a/b and c/d with relative weights b and d = ((a/b) * b + (c/d) * d) / (b + d) = (a + c)/(b + d).

On the other hand, fraction addition is clearly determined as a/b + c/d = ad/bd + bc/bd = (ad + bc)/bd given the a/b = (ak)/(bk) and (a/b + c/b) = (a + c)/b axioms.

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#235
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to know that this really isn't true. Maths at all times is a subjective language. Maths notation is imprecise "intentionally confused", or just ad-hoc defined all the time. When you see something like. f(x) = summation(x^n, n=0, 10) We conveniently ignore that this polynomial is defined at x=0 despite 0^0 not making any sense by ad-hoc defining 0^0 = 1 in this context.

That's just lazy, and I haven't ever read a good text use summation where any of the terms would be outright undefined if evaluated.

You've never seen a textbook present the series form of e^x?

    exp(x) = summation(x^n/n!, n=0, inf)
exp(0) = 1 is perfectly valid but the identity above only holds for x=0 only if we define 0^0 = 1. And we do!

Fair, infinite series are pretty esoteric. How about derivatives. The power rule:

    d/dx x^n = n x^(n-1)
This identity doesn't hold for n = 1 and x = 0 unless 0^0 = 1.

Eh maybe not, programmers don't use calculus that often. But surely statistics!

    (1 + x)^n = summation((n choose k)x^k, k=0, n)
Take x = 0 and n = 0

    (1 + x)^n = (1 + 0)^0 = 1 = 0^0 = x^0 = x^0 + ... + x^n
0^0 is undefined in general but locally we sometimes need to define it.

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#236
post #152

The units are missing, and I think that's a key factor here. Both of the equations up on the board at the end are correct because they are counting different things. This is a huge miss if you use a numeric only approach to fractions. The student came up and wrote 1/3 + 1/3 = 2/6. What they meant by that is 1/3 (of the students at a table) + 1/3 (of the students at a different table) = 2/6 (of the students at those t…

One could explain the mistake to have different units on both side without fractions at all: 1+1=1 One shoe plus one shoe equals one pair of shoes. Once they grasp that explaining the fraction issue should be easier.

This is a great baseline for the units answer.

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#237
I love this discussion and want to throw in my two cents. Why not teach beginning students group theory as the foundation to addition and subtraction?

While it wouldn't solve this particular problem since fractions require fields, it would give teachers the tools to explain precisely why addition of two tables is not a group or field operation; they are from different sets and require measurement with units to define a new inclusive set.

My own understanding of arithmetic and algebra was enhanced immensely by a book outlining the derivation from Peano axioms.

Ultimately the concepts are very simple and kids intuitively do the steps without having the names for the mental processes that they're doing. The educational hurdles to me seem to be 1) identifying the memorized names of the sequence of natural numbers with a procedure for generating them; 2) distinguishing between procedures, objects, numerals, and numbers; 3) basics of set theory; 4) natural induction.

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#238
post #233

It's easy to see that this cannot be a valid definition for fraction addition because applying it along with the rule that a/b = (ak)/(bk) gives a contradiction: 3/7 = 2/4 (+) 1/3 = 1/2 (+) 1/3 = 2/5, absurd because 2/5 != 3/7 Once this is realized, it's easy to see that the correct formulation for the "table joining" operation used here is a weighted arithmetic mean, i.e. a(/)b (+) c(/)d = weighted arithmetic mean o…

2/4 + 1/3 would clearly be 5/12.

You halve each to put them in terms of the two wholes you're combining (which you must be doing, since you're adding them—else where do those go?) then combine those. Same process that gives you 1/3 + 1/3 = 1/3.

Worked out (conventional meaning of + for clarity; we'd need a new operator otherwise):

1/4 + 1/6 = 6/24 + 4/24 = 10/24 = 5/12

Re: Can 1/3 and 1/3 = 2/6? It seemed so

#240

The units are missing, and I think that's a key factor here. Both of the equations up on the board at the end are correct because they are counting different things. This is a huge miss if you use a numeric only approach to fractions. The student came up and wrote 1/3 + 1/3 = 2/6. What they meant by that is 1/3 (of the students at a table) + 1/3 (of the students at a different table) = 2/6 (of the students at those t…

I would do piecewise addition like this:

Girl A is 1/3 of Table A, which seats half of the students, so she is 1/3 * 1/2 = 1/6 of the total.

Girl B is 1/3 of Table A, which seats half of the students, so she is 1/3 * 1/2 = 1/6 of the total.

So girls represent 1/6 + 1/6 = 2/6 of the total.

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