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Why no looting in Japan?

caffertyfile.blogs.cnn.com

111–120 of 191 posts

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#111
I think it is high level of "human capital" plus an understanding that your society is a cooperative venture. I am not sure, but I would hazard that most Japanese are highly literate, brought up to behave well, and that there is actually a social contract in force. I am willing to bet just a little bit of money that your average high school grad (i.e. "working class") Japanese person would rival our state college educated class for both high levels of good behavior and knowledge. I bet there would be similar behavior in the Scandinavian countries.

And, interestingly, everyone would expect the students at a state college or better to behave just like the Japanese.

Really, the fact that there is such widespread poverty, thuggery, and low educational levels in the US is just plain embarrassing. That you can't trust the people you live around is the weird thing, not that you can.

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#112
post #59

I am surprised nobody mentioned this yet: Japan has a much MUCH lower level of income (and wealth) inequality than the US, Haiti, etc. [1] There are just a lot fewer poor people in Japan. So if your house got leveled by the tsunami, you can go to your friends, relatives, family, etc for a little help because they aren't half impoverished already. I don't mean to demean the theory regarding social differences. I'm sur…

Also, because there are fewer poor people, there are fewer people growing up without access to decent family and educational training and enculturation.

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#113
post #35

This is something that really surprised me about Japanese culture. I went there in 2008 for a study tour and one of the things that really impressed me is how different their attitude towards shared property and public space is. On numerous occasions I saw things where I thought: wow, in my country (The Netherlands) this would totally get abused, vandalized or stolen. Not that my country is not safe or dirty, just th…

There's plenty of graffiti, just not in plain sight. Look in the alleys. Regarding the trash, there's two forces at work. One is that there's a rich naturalist tradition here. Japanese love nature, which is why you see so many people enjoying the parks here. Littering goes against that tradition, and the second force at work is that Japanese people really don't buck tradition.

To me, the way they "love" nature, is a bit different form the nature I'm used to. Nature means a weekend walk in the park -meanwhile many riparian areas have simply been paved over. So the love for nature is a little different. It's more "human tamed nature". It's kind of like when humans (yama girls) outnumber trees that you know it's not really nature.

Agree with the rest though.

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#114
post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe. I am certainly also not saying multi-cultures are unsuccessful. This has nothing to do with safety or success, more efficiency gains and tolerance costs. I'm trying to raise a nuanced point and I went out of my way to say neither is better than the other. I think the efficiency gained depends on the culture gaining it. Japan has decided that they value safety…

"Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe." Sure, but you attributed safety and other "efficiencies" in Japan to "monoculture." You also wrote, "Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to /Japanese/ culture. Fair enough. In that case, what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh, making it more multicultu…

Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to /Japanese/ culture. Fair enough.

Yes I wasn't careful enough in my writing. I mean to say that monoculture allows you to optimize around your values. Lowest common denominator sounds too judgmental but I mean it in the set-theory kind of way. I probably should just have said "common values".

what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh, making it more multicultural? Would it be a less "efficient" culture?

Yes, I think there would be certain generalizations that you could no longer depend on being true. I don't know what they would be. Maybe it would be better, maybe worse. Maybe it would be you would have to order a wider variety of food at your wedding to make everyone happy. I don't know. I would say that's a reduction in efficiency.

I am aware of racism here and I don't think it's good. I don't think Japanese companies are economically efficient but they pretty good at reflecting Japanese values. I eat a restricted diet and it's an inconvenience that people assume that I just eat the standard issue Japanese cuisine. A lot of people complain about that but I understand why it is that way.

I don't see what is so controversial about what I'm trying to say. I'm saying that having to always be tolerant for the way other people do things trades something off compared to living where everyone already does things mostly the way you would.

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#115

This is something that really surprised me about Japanese culture. I went there in 2008 for a study tour and one of the things that really impressed me is how different their attitude towards shared property and public space is. On numerous occasions I saw things where I thought: wow, in my country (The Netherlands) this would totally get abused, vandalized or stolen. Not that my country is not safe or dirty, just th…

Was surprised at same types of thing the first time I visited. I believe this question is answered by this new york times article below about Japanese lost and founds. I've asked my friends about the phenomena and they attribute it to a sense of duty/routine - normally nobody even thinks twice about turning in a lost item. http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=990CEED71131F...

I've lost my wallet quite a few times over the past 10 years in the US, and I've recovered it all but once. Once it came through the mail (missing a single gift card). Today it was waiting for me in Walgreens.

I've found wallets and cell phones, and tracked down the owners, too.

The US isn't the den of iniquity breathless journos like to pretend it is.

I attribute it to a sense of basic human decency that nearly everyone manages to maintain if one isn't suffering from crushing poverty.

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#116
post #83
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It strikes me as a theory with very poor explanatory power. We've seen many crises in the US as well, and Katrina was an exception . There have been a couple of others within my lifetime, but it's not politically correct to point out what similarities they may have. (I suppose I should point out this isn't a veiled reference to race , it's actually 100% cultural , but it's still not politically correct to discuss.) I…

Sorry, not trying to anger anyone or anything, I am genuinely interested. Where in the US was there a natural disaster of significant scale where there was no looting? I'm actually from Wisconsin, but was living in Cedar Rapids during the floods, and there was looting there. My neighbor was the cop chasing these guys down. I am just curious how other communities were able to avoid looting. BTW, Cedar Rapids is in Iow…

http://www.sanitaryum.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/You-loo...

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#117
post #90
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure... I've thought about that a lot too. You're saying I should have challenged their values with mine. I probably should have said something. And yet I would spend all day long every day in arguments with people who just don't agree with me. I tend to be rather non-confrontational and don't like arguments. Many people can just shrug it off but I get upset by them. In my mind, this is an example of an efficiency ga…

Not that I would have done this either, but you could have just picked up their trash for them. Then the dad would have had to explain to his kid why you were cleaning up their mess. Not too confrontational, but it still gets the point across.

My current hobby is to make a visible point of calling out litterers and picking up their litter if they don't (especially cigaretes).

So far, I've gotten ignored a lot, a couple of sheepish looks or mutterings, and I've been assaulted once (after returning a dropped cigarette to the owner, she threw the coffee drink at me, littering further.)

I strongly exhort all decent people to make a point of transmitting their values loudly, clearly, and defensibly. If only vandals and thugs feel free to express their beliefs in public, where will that lead us?

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#118
post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Please note that I'm not saying all monocultures are safe." Sure, but you attributed safety and other "efficiencies" in Japan to "monoculture." You also wrote, "Multiculturalism means lowest common denominator." Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to /Japanese/ culture. Fair enough. In that case, what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bangladesh, making it more multicultu…

Now you seem to be attributing safety in Japan not to monoculture but to /Japanese/ culture. Fair enough. Yes I wasn't careful enough in my writing. I mean to say that monoculture allows you to optimize around your values. Lowest common denominator sounds too judgmental but I mean it in the set-theory kind of way. I probably should just have said "common values". what would happen if 10 million Japanese moved to Bang…

I think I grok your meaning of "efficiency" now; I'm definitely not suggesting you are an intolerant person.

I would politely challenge, however, the idea that there's roughly equal virtue between Brooklyn-style embraced diversity vs Japan-style conformity. Not only does multiculturalism have a genuine moral attractiveness, which should not be dismissed, it makes for a stronger, more resilient country over the long term. Fresh ideas, fresh values, fresh labor, fresh taxpayers, fresh consumers, fresh inventors and indeed fresh culture are stengths that have been indispensable in allowing the U.S. to overcome its many deep (and often chronic) flaws and attain the level of economic and cultural success that it has. Similarly, a tendency toward xenophobia has hampered Japan's many intrinsic strengths, which have nevertheless been strong enough to set the country as an (oft misinterpreted) example of How To Win.

TLDR: Monoculture is a harmful, false optimization at the national level (though quite useful within, say, an apartment, church or startup incubator).

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#119

This is probably a presumptuous or naive statement, but the very first thing that came to my mind was: if you have ever been to Japan, you wouldn't even think of asking this question.

By all means, please do elaborate.

I was thinking the same thing. Modern Japanese culture looks very negatively at people who put their own interests ahead of everybody else's, to an extent that you probably can't imagine if you haven't been there, and this is backed up by very low levels of inequality.

I remember a news program I was watching in our Japanese class in, uh, probably 1992. A couple of policemen were interviewing a distraught convenience-store clerk who had just been robbed.

"Did he look blue-collar, or white-collar, or what?"

"He just looked like a normal person! But obviously he wasn't, because he robbed the store!"

Our whole class (this was in the US) burst out laughing. The idea that, in order to commit armed robbery, a person would have to have some kind of mental abnormality — it was so alien to us as to be comical. That idea used to exist in US culture; Lombroso's theories used to be popular, eugenic policies were often justified on the basis that "morons" were likely to be criminals, and the word "crook" was a neat little package wrapping up the idea of mental abnormality causing lawbreaking. Much of Clarence Darrow's career was spent defending the most abhorrent criminals on the basis that their criminality was beyond their control, although not merely because of mental defects.

But, at least since the 1970s, an alternative conception of law and lawbreaking has been popular in the US — perhaps due to the absurd drug war, perhaps due to the discovery of abuses like the Tuskegee experiment, J. Edgar Hoover's campaigns of persecution against national heroes like MLK, and government deceptions about Vietnam and the dangers of fallout from open-air nuclear testing, perhaps due to the increasing cultural influence of Hollywood, or perhaps simply due to the failure of prosperity to be widely shared.

Whatever the cause, though, people from the US almost universally think of lawbreaking as a common and often harmless activity, not something limited to the mentally handicapped or partially insane — something that many people would do if the law weren't restraining them.

Also, in Japan, if you deviate from social norms, everyone will pressure you to conform. In the US, it's usually just the police.

Therefore the difference in looting behavior is unsurprising. I hypothesize that if you look back to 1955, you'll find natural disasters in the US with almost no looting, too.

Here in Argentina, things are even more American than in the US.

Re: Why no looting in Japan?

#120
post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You should have said something to the guy who's kid littered. That's how culture is supposed to work.

Sure... I've thought about that a lot too. You're saying I should have challenged their values with mine. I probably should have said something. And yet I would spend all day long every day in arguments with people who just don't agree with me. I tend to be rather non-confrontational and don't like arguments. Many people can just shrug it off but I get upset by them. In my mind, this is an example of an efficiency ga…

Next time, try saying something instead of thinking, and see how it goes. Science has two[0] legs, theory and experimentation.

([0] Some say that science has a third leg now: computation.)

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