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Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

rachelbythebay.com

21–30 of 90 posts

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#21
Reading this made me think why there are so few middle-aged engineers in tech. There have been several theories for this, such as ageism and the field's rapid expansion. Reading this made me wonder if they just get sick of it and leave.

Friends had reached out to me. "We need a director for our reliability software engineering stuff". They asked for my help. They wanted to build something good, like the early days of a few former places I had worked at. I was willing to help out, but honestly, only as a contractor. I had enough of the full time tech thing for one lifetime already.

Tech has an image of itself as a magical place where we're changing the world while getting to indulge our inner geeks. And yet a director title for an individual contributor and top 1% pay is not enough to close a hire. The top people are essentially taking early retirement. People in other fields (doctors for example) continue working long after retirement age. Maybe tech is not such a magical place?

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#22

To OP: I wish you all the best. I didn't read or comment on the original article. One thing to consider is to not engage with the critics. It's hard, I know -- really I know. An engineering mind set might make you not want to "flip the bozo bit", and to learn as much from your detractors as possible. There may be strategic reasons to get your story out -- e.g. if your co-workers or potential clients are getting a dis…

For what it's worth op, I never saw the criticisms, just the original article. Replying is like a Streisand effect. If you must reply, replying less directly might serve you better.

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's the secret sauce here? Age? Reputation? Subject matter? I suspect tone to be the secret sauce. You can rewrite most things in ways that at least some people will dislike without changing the facts. You can also rewrite them in a way that will solicit sympathy from those same people. Tone can change a lot.

Except the tone in all of the stories is overwhelmingly the same: I'm not stupid, what I'm being asked to do is stupid. And as I said, usually the commenters will give you the benefit of the doubt: yes, that legacy code sounds like it probably sucked, or yes, the client's requirements were nonsensical and contradictory. Except here.

I have a different understanding of tone. I'm not stupid, what I'm being asked to do is stupid is the content, the tone is how it's written.

You can sound arrogant, you can call people names, you can sound like you're about to ask to speak to the manager, you can add some self-deprecating jokes, you can show empathy for whoever created the mess while describing the problems you had with said mess etc, that's the tone.

The content stays the same, but people will react very differently to it based on the tone. Some styles work for nearly all audiences, some don't.

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#24
post #12
post #4

« I don't send out e-mails that are like this: Please get on your phone, turn off your wifi, and then navigate to HN, then to new, then find the post, THEN upvote it. Don't upvote it from the post itself. The company, however, does. A LOT. (Explains a few things, doesn't it?) »

Yikes!!! I’d like to know which company this is.

Rachel's most recent job was at Lyft.

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#25

To OP: I wish you all the best. I didn't read or comment on the original article. One thing to consider is to not engage with the critics. It's hard, I know -- really I know. An engineering mind set might make you not want to "flip the bozo bit", and to learn as much from your detractors as possible. There may be strategic reasons to get your story out -- e.g. if your co-workers or potential clients are getting a dis…

Ignoring the critics allows them to swell in self-importance and gather a crowd around them. Why did you choose to pressure someone else here to ignore “HN’s mental illness” and let it fester, rather than to pressure HN’s commenters here to stop being poisonous to others?

Because I've been in similar situations. There's a saying: "Don't wrestle with pigs because you both end up covered in shit, but they enjoy it." Also, Admiral Ackbar: "It's a traaaap.".

> Ignoring the critics allows them to swell in self-importance and gather a crowd around them.

Strongly disagree. Making your case and setting the story straight is of course reasonable, but in a way it gives power to your critics. Often it can establish power/dominance better to just be like "Who the fuck cares what you think? Replying to you is beneath me." But to do that without even saying it. You don't come off as an ass, and they are just howling on the internets. So ... ghosting.

EDIT> By all means call out the bad behaviour, but like a comedian would, not like an engineer. An engineer answers point by point and tries to make a rational case -- too much effort and it won't stop the hate. A comedian says "So, these morons said X, look how stupid they are ... and that's why I don't read comments anymore." applause. <- low effort and deliciously dismissive.

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#26

Reading this made me think why there are so few middle-aged engineers in tech. There have been several theories for this, such as ageism and the field's rapid expansion. Reading this made me wonder if they just get sick of it and leave. Friends had reached out to me. "We need a director for our reliability software engineering stuff". They asked for my help. They wanted to build something good, like the early days of…

Maybe supply is still way lower than necessary, considering that proficiency requires several years of training and practice on technology that changes very often. Maybe the supply pool is still effectively limited to certain “socioeconoethnic” groups, and often companies self-sabotage by requiring candidates to live in certain areas.

In my experience, the attitudes of software developers, as seen all over the web, are basically the definition of “privileged” in a way that does not match almost anything else. “I didn’t like my manager, so I quit and spent a few months counting my $$$ until I found something I liked more” is something that very few other professions can flaunt. This is, incidentally, why old-school managers are basically incompatible with the sector: in any tech hotspot, you literally cannot threaten or bully a tech employee, unlike any other employee. I bet lots of people high-up hate this so much.

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#27
post #26

Reading this made me think why there are so few middle-aged engineers in tech. There have been several theories for this, such as ageism and the field's rapid expansion. Reading this made me wonder if they just get sick of it and leave. Friends had reached out to me. "We need a director for our reliability software engineering stuff". They asked for my help. They wanted to build something good, like the early days of…

Maybe supply is still way lower than necessary, considering that proficiency requires several years of training and practice on technology that changes very often. Maybe the supply pool is still effectively limited to certain “socioeconoethnic” groups, and often companies self-sabotage by requiring candidates to live in certain areas. In my experience, the attitudes of software developers, as seen all over the web, a…

[deleted]

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#28
As a manager/lead who has personally fielded similar concerns from new hires, I understand where Rachel's frustrations come from, specifically with painful onboarding processes. I'm not commenting on Rachel's specific experience, but just in general for those that might feel empowered by her response; I just don't think it's generally appropriate.

The process was surely designed with good intentions, perhaps by committee. And it's been designed to help those that need help.

For those that don't need help, these things suck.

Providing an out for new hires who don't need this handholding is problematic. You can't just make this stuff optional. You don't know what you don't know, and junior devs often think they know more than they do. Too many people would miss information they actually need. I think a senior-level engineer needs to understand this, and be able to cope with the anguish. Sometimes there are actually useful processes in place, but only useful for a select few, but because it's impossible to know who those few are, everyone must go through it.

There are usually ways for anyone to affect change in an organization, but unless you've been specifically hired to make changes, you're going to have to wait a while, and even then, you may never be able to make the changes you really want. But such is life. Figure out what truly matters to you, in the long term, and you'll likely find you'll become much more influential amongst your peers, and even upper management. If you can't change the things that matter to you, don't torture yourself further; it's probably time to move on.

On the flip side: if you just want to work for a smooth-running, well-oiled machine that aligns with your ideals already, good luck on your search!

Re: Setting the story straight on quite a few issues

#30
post #20

It's weird how what I consider the same kind of story can seemingly trigger universal empathy or universal derision. If the story is of the oft-posted, "My nightmare dealing with a legacy codebase" or "My nightmare delivering a project for an inept client" flavor, there's no shortage of people jumping in the comments to echo the sentiment and reinforce with their own stories. You change a few details, however, to the…

> What's the secret sauce here? Age? Reputation? Subject matter? Being a woman. The dogpilers are most likely cluing in on her name. https://i.imgur.com/Kowemhz.jpg

Her gender does seem to cause divisiveness, but it affects both sides of the debate. _Anyone_ who criticises anything in articles coming from these domains is downvoted and _all_ arguments are hand waved away on the grounds that they're made because OP is a woman.

What this means is that no measured discussion can be had either way and the comments are almost always a disaster (at least here, on HN).

It's weird, I don't know what's the root cause of all this vitriol (other women authors don't get this treatment on HN, it's just this particular domain).

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