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Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

theverge.com

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Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#501
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, how long do you think it'd take to get somewhat comfortable with reading/writing such things? Would it really be "so difficult"? You can also write what you wrote in TeX too, it just won't look as nice in the output and might mislead a reader into thinking a multiplication of s, q, r, t is happening as well as wondering what's going on with the "+-". ± is a symbol too you know.. On Linux it's just compose key the…

> Under what conditions are you writing math on a computer where you don't have proper tools to do it? Chat applications. From IRCs and MSNs to Skypes, Telegrams and Discords. Other places would be comment sections such as these. They're never going to have built in TeX or any other such support. Does the compose key work on different keyboard layouts?

> Does the compose key work on different keyboard layouts?

Yup, switching to Dvorak and the sequence is the same (. then [ on qwerty). There also seems to be an ibus mode for it in ibus-table-others, along with a mode that tries to map LaTeX to unicode symbols, but I haven't tried either.

As for your other remark, I remember back in the day using the Gaim-LaTeX plugin to communicate LaTeX with people over MSN/AIM/IRC/etc... If you had the plugin, it would auto-render LaTeX for you. I also think there may have been a plugin that would send the other party an image instead so you could still share if they didn't have it. I haven't used anything like it in a long time as my need to communicate or have communicated formatted math to people over IM is pretty much 0 these days, but perhaps https://sourceforge.net/projects/pidgin-latex/ still works. But also on IRC, many rooms have bots that accept programs to eval and print, typically used for math calculations, and then you just use the syntax of the language instead of LaTeX.

For Skype, Telegram, Discord, comment hosts like HN or Discus or blog software, that's a failing on them for not implementing a very well-known standard (TeX)...

But you can still share raw TeX strings, especially since almost everyone at least implements some sort of blockquote or monotext formatting system where it's possible to bypass markdown et al. rules turning 345 into nonsense. And while you may have found it difficult to read the equation I posted earlier, I'd be really surprised if it took you a long time to get comfortable enough to read it and other arbitrary equations around whatever level of math you have in their raw TeX form (especially if the poster bothered to format it a bit more nicely with whitespace, which I didn't do). It's kind of like getting used to reading regexes, but even easier.

I guess maybe you could try to convince me it's more difficult to pick up (even for a high schooler) than I think, perhaps since I've just been used to it for so long and the last time I saw someone pick it up was in college? And of course this is only talking about writing math with the purpose of displaying it nicely in the end, actually calculating will tend to involve another syntax yet again but I don't think those are typically bad either... Perhaps raw Python can be terrible if you're trying to do symbolic math, but then why wouldn't you be using a system explicitly for that or even in Python use SymPy (and I'm just now remembering there's that whole Jupyter ecosystem that I'm sure has support for SymPy and rendering nice looking math with LaTeX). I've enjoyed Maxima, which even in a terminal does a good job with ASCII graphics http://maxima.sourceforge.net/i/maximacl.png but of course there's a graphical front end.

I got a bit off topic but as a last resort to communicating math over such channels, you can go to sites like https://www.codecogs.com/latex/eqneditor.php?lang=en-en and write out your math (it even has some buttons to help if you don't yet know the TeX-isms) and share a link to the output like https://latex.codecogs.com/png.download?%5Cdpi%7B120%7D%20%5... Slack even downloads and displays it for you in-chat.

(It's also worth pointing out that Discord has an ok-ish Pidgin connector... and even my ghetto home-grown blog has had LaTeX support for posts and comments through a JS library that I haven't bothered to update since 2012. It even lets you right-click to view the TeX source too, example near the bottom here https://www.thejach.com/view/2011/9/playing_with_morton_numb... So never say never!)

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#502

A lot of comments are arguing about whether the software should have been modified to accept the HEIC format. Let's go with "no" for the sake of argument. They probably can't accept an mp3 of me singing my answers, either. But! If I upload an HEIC, an mp3, a keynote file, or anything else unacceptable... Why doesn't the site provide an immediate "File format not accepted, please upload .gif, .jpg, or .png" message? A…

    else if (!isAllowedExtension)
         error = { title: 'This file type is not acceptable.', details: 'Please check the requirements, save your file in one of the accepted 
    formats, and resubmit.' }
Or, maybe theverge is just lying or relying on the misconception. If you think renaming your file is the same as converting your file, maybe you are misplaced in the advanced placement program...

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#503
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I suppose you’re welcome to have whatever bizarre opinions you like, but you should recognise that they’re pretty fringe. No, this isn’t something the average person should need to know about.

[flagged]

By default, both Windows and MacOS hide file extensions. Smart phones almost universally hide them, if they give you a file explorer at all.

I suspect most teenagers (and that's what we're talking about here - 17, 18 years olds finishing secondary school) would have a notion that jpg and gif are image formats, and pdf and dcx are a document formats. I suspect few would know much beyond that, and most would not have had much reason to worry about converting between formats. [I work in higher ed tech, my gut feeling here is based on performing usability testing of other software]

Add in an unexpected file format glitch during the most important test of their life? Yeah, I'm not at all surprised that some/many screwed up.

This is 100% on College Board for failing to handle the situation gracefully. They didn't need to accept heif files. They did need to provide detailed instructions ahead of time, including possible issues with unsupported formats.

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#504
post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> esoteric technical requirements Knowing a file type is an "esoteric technical requirement" ? Yes, this comment is for real. I'm the head of IT for a university and we do online applications. We actually accept everything within a given size requirement (which people are unable to respect). I have a bunch of scripts that run over all applications in the end to put them in the right formats, to do OCR for the photos…

You’re vastly overestimating the competence of the average computer user. There’s a sizeable minority of people out there that don’t know what file extensions are, and even if they do know about them, they might not understand how they work (hence students attempting to convert file types by changing the extension). File extensions are an implementation detail that, ideally, end users should never be forced to think…

I'm not overestimating them. I see lots of college admission files, I know how inept most high school graduates are. I would like to see a higher base standard because frankly these issues are not going away for them and I don't see it as a tertiary education issue. 3 to 6 years later they will still have to submit resumes and portfolios and they will suck at it but the places they submit these to now longer offer any grace periods. File size to large? Fuck you. Wrong file type? Fuck you. Unsigned PDF? Fuck you. Missing a document? Fuck you. Missed a dead line? Fuck you.

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#505

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does have pretty much exactly that message. The corruption problems came from students seeing that only PNGs/JPGs were allowed, then trying to "convert" the file just by renaming it. What they're doing is the same as 99% of other sites that expect images. But it's probably fair to expect it to be even more streamlined (i.e: clear conversion instructions) given the circumstances of a time-limited exam.

No, what 99% of sites are doing is If you do that, Safari will convert the HEIC image to a JPEG automatically when you try to upload it. What they did instead was to poorly reinvent the accept header in Javascript as follows: { const split = file.name.split('.') const fileType = split[split.length-1].toLowerCase() const isAllowedExtension = extensions.includes(`.${fileType}`) }} /> (per https://news.ycombinator.com/i…

> If you do that, Safari will convert the HEIC image to a JPEG automatically when you try to upload it.

That’s quite impressive actually and much more than I would expect from a browser’s control.

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#506

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does have pretty much exactly that message. The corruption problems came from students seeing that only PNGs/JPGs were allowed, then trying to "convert" the file just by renaming it. What they're doing is the same as 99% of other sites that expect images. But it's probably fair to expect it to be even more streamlined (i.e: clear conversion instructions) given the circumstances of a time-limited exam.

No, what 99% of sites are doing is If you do that, Safari will convert the HEIC image to a JPEG automatically when you try to upload it. What they did instead was to poorly reinvent the accept header in Javascript as follows: { const split = file.name.split('.') const fileType = split[split.length-1].toLowerCase() const isAllowedExtension = extensions.includes(`.${fileType}`) }} /> (per https://news.ycombinator.com/i…

That might be part of the problem, though other comments also point out that students were copying file to a computer, then changing file extension, then uploading. Possibly this was as a result of the iOS browser rejecting the file in the first place due to the shoddy input filtering mentioned.

But going a bit bigger picture, the problem is that we still use file extensions to denote file type.

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#507
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

By default, both Windows and MacOS hide file extensions. Smart phones almost universally hide them, if they give you a file explorer at all. I suspect most teenagers (and that's what we're talking about here - 17, 18 years olds finishing secondary school) would have a notion that jpg and gif are image formats, and pdf and dcx are a document formats. I suspect few would know much beyond that, and most would not have h…

> I suspect few would know much beyond that, and most would not have had much reason to worry about converting between formats.

Ok, first of, why should I (as an institution) care about the people unable to fulfil the conditions of my test? Maybe I only want people with a basic understanding of file formats because chances are they will have less issues with future applications?

> They did need to provide detailed instructions ahead of time, including possible issues with unsupported formats.

They send out a message a week before the tests. The website only accepted the allowed formats. You could complain about them using Twitter to send out that message but you are not.

> They didn't need to accept heif files. They did need to provide detailed instructions ahead of time, including possible issues with unsupported formats.

They did not accept .heic files (see the source from the upload js file). They did provide a list of supported files. Maybe the handholding should stop at some point?

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#508
post #489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm unsure that any of these students wanted to take their AP exams on their phone or computer. That this is a new problem suggests that this is something they've been newly forced to deal with. It's certainly not a well engineered user experience. Passing a physics test should require physics knowledge, not knowledge of image formats. I think understanding of image formats is actually fairly obscure outside of techn…

[flagged]

No one rational feels sorry for universities.

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#509

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, what 99% of sites are doing is If you do that, Safari will convert the HEIC image to a JPEG automatically when you try to upload it. What they did instead was to poorly reinvent the accept header in Javascript as follows: { const split = file.name.split('.') const fileType = split[split.length-1].toLowerCase() const isAllowedExtension = extensions.includes(`.${fileType}`) }} /> (per https://news.ycombinator.com/i…

That might be part of the problem, though other comments also point out that students were copying file to a computer, then changing file extension, then uploading. Possibly this was as a result of the iOS browser rejecting the file in the first place due to the shoddy input filtering mentioned. But going a bit bigger picture, the problem is that we still use file extensions to denote file type.

This keeps getting brought up because there was one anecdote in the Verge story about a student who renamed the file on their computer. (Which still shouldn't have caused the test to keel over, but it's at least slightly more understandable.)

However, there were many other reports of students going the more "normal" route of just uploading through their iPhones, which caused the website to outright hang.

Re: Students are failing AP tests because the College Board can’t handle HEIC images

#510
post #428
post #427

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is this for comment real? Why should being tech savvy enough to jump through esoteric technical requirements be part of the test?

> esoteric technical requirements Knowing a file type is an "esoteric technical requirement" ? Yes, this comment is for real. I'm the head of IT for a university and we do online applications. We actually accept everything within a given size requirement (which people are unable to respect). I have a bunch of scripts that run over all applications in the end to put them in the right formats, to do OCR for the photos…

Yes. Your average user knows nothing of file types. They know about pictures. Ask your average iPhone users whether their pictures are stored as JPEG, HEIC or TIFF files and you'll get a blank stare most of the time.
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