Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income • Hacker News Board

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#201

Post by gowld » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:25 PM UTC

hadtodoit wrote: post #132

Ididntdothis wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The annual dividend is around $1000. I wouldn’t call this UBI exactly.

Many people actually survive on that one check. Alaskans are fiercely independent for the most part, and those living outside the main cities are typically self-sustainable. They own their land, hunt for their meat, grow their veggies, trade for what they don't have, and spend whatever money they do have on the essential tools to sustain that.

> trade

That's income, even if it's not denominated in dollars.

Presumably they also own land and a house, which is wealth.

The point behind the UBI concept that it does it's thing even if you have no income because you love somewhere where you can't farm your own food and have your own land with your own house in it.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#202

Post by eanzenberg » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

jedberg wrote: post #182

cheeseomlit wrote: post #136

If the government starts giving me enough money each month to subsist while drastically raising taxes on my earnings from employment then I'll simply stop working. I would imagine most people would do the same.

Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy. Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise.

>>Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy.

But probably less "meaningful" work, in however society defines meaningful.

>>Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise.

This is due to earning a return matching their effort. At some point, if enough income is withheld at that level, what's the point? Or, they will leave en-mass to countries more willing to employ entrepreneur muscle. These aren't anecdotes. Look at emigration from USSR, China, Venezuela or others of their scientists, professors, doctors, lawyers, financiers, etc.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#203

Post by eanzenberg » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

bzb3 wrote: post #196

jedberg wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy. Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise.

There are lots of jobs people don't enjoy. Who's going to do those? If they raise the salaries and start getting applicants, who's going to buy the much more expensive produce? They'd have to increase the amount of ubi, and there you have inflation.

The robots, obviously! /s

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#204

Post by jedberg » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:26 PM UTC

bzb3 wrote: post #196

jedberg wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy. Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise.

There are lots of jobs people don't enjoy. Who's going to do those? If they raise the salaries and start getting applicants, who's going to buy the much more expensive produce? They'd have to increase the amount of ubi, and there you have inflation.

Non-citizens don't get UBI, so it would fall to immigrants.

That's in fact the biggest issue with UBI -- it creates a de-facto class system.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#205

Post by unethical_ban » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:27 PM UTC

WalterBright wrote: post #163

cheeseomlit wrote: post #136

If the government starts giving me enough money each month to subsist while drastically raising taxes on my earnings from employment then I'll simply stop working. I would imagine most people would do the same.

If the government provided food, shelter, and video games, I expect quite a few people would see no purpose in working. Also the surfers and backpackers.

I don't think UBI is meant to supply a cushy life. You may be able to afford a modest apartment and food, but what about a car? A nice bicycle? A nice phone? Books? Money to actually go out instead of eating soylent? Saving for buying a house or land?

Many people who "go off the reservation" and travel/live mobile tend to settle down after a while.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#206

Post by lukemichals » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #183

lukemichals wrote: post #179

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> taxes on my earnings Yangs proposal was a VAT, which wouldn't be a tax on your earnings. Am I off here?

So it's regressive? Even better..

Direct from yangs site (https://www.yang2020.com/policies/value-added-tax/)

> This VAT would vary based on the good to which it's applied, with staples having a lower rate or being excluded, and luxury goods having a higher rate.

That's the beauty of a VAT. It can be tuned to reach the desired result.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#207

Post by clairity » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:28 PM UTC

UBI is meant to be a gambit to distract us from seeing that the playing field is so heavily tilted against everyone but the very rich and fortunate. the rich buy this diversion by periodically sliding some pennies down to the rest of us on the other end, while patting themselves on the back for doing such a magnanimous thing.

what we really need to do is bring transparency and fairness to labor markets, and squeeze rentiers and financiers, so that we can start to tilt that playing field back to where innovators can innovate in all sorts of directions, not just in the ones deigned to make the rich even richer.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#208

Post by birdyrooster » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

tgv wrote: post #176

So literally a solution in search of a problem. A living income guarantee has my blessing, but UBI doesn't. It's either too low, and there's still need for welfare, unemployment benefit, etc., or so high that the (unpredictable) consequences can completely overwhelm the advantages.

The problem part we got down: We all need a living income and the current system cannot employ all with a living income. There are many people who are fully employed and cannot make ends meet. Many others still cannot leave their employer to improve or change their skills without losing their housing, healthcare, or food security -- short of being crucified on higher education debt. This hurts everyone.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#209

Post by jedberg » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

eanzenberg wrote: post #202

jedberg wrote: post #182

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy. Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise.

>>Every experiment in UBI says otherwise. Direct cash grants usually lead people to do more work, because now they can do the work they enjoy. But probably less "meaningful" work, in however society defines meaningful. >>Also, look around groups of wealthy people. The ones who don't have to work anymore. Sure, some of them live a life of leisure, but many of them still work, because they get bored otherwise. This is…

> But probably less "meaningful" work, in however society defines meaningful.

Typically in these experiments the people start small businesses. When the risk of failure has a floor it makes you more likely to take on the risk.

> At some point, if enough income is withheld at that level, what's the point?

Most UBI proposals are VAT taxes. The more you consume the more you pay. So if you're a wealthy person, you will still see the return on your effort.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#210

Post by slg » Thu, May 21, 2020, 7:30 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #192

slg wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you currently only working just to subsist? Because most people on HN work much harder than they need to and make much more than they need to just to subsist.

You currently don't have the option to not work. Most people work more than they need to because they realize that the future is uncertain and having savings will be beneficial if there's trouble at some point in the future. Give the same people a trust fund that takes care of them and that they trust to last for their life time, and most will stop working as hard. They may still work, but much less and most likely o…

It isn't a binary option between work and not work. Most people on HN make much more money than they need to subsist. If the goal is to only subsist, there is an option to reduce hours worked in exchange for reduced pay. The exact form that could take varies as not everyone works at a company that would support either a shorter workday or workweek. However other options exists that don't rely on your employer such as taking regular sabbaticals or a very early retirement.

There are also numerous financial options available to you such as annuities or insurance if you are worried about protecting yourself from unforeseen financial hardships.