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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#91

Post by daenz »

Pfhreak wrote: post #32
exabrial wrote: post #8

Which is incredibly charitable! Opponents to UBI only oppose the income source being tax; which is a forced wealth transfer (opposite of my money my choice).

I'm a leftist person who isn't an opponent of ubi, but is an opponent of Yang's ubi. I have no problem with raising taxes, but I do have other concerns. Namely, if everyone got $x,xxx a month, how do we ensure that rents don't just go up by that amount or wages don't go down by that amount? I worry that without a well thought out plan, UBI just ends up funneling money directly back to the wealthy (eg, landlords and b…

>how do we ensure that rents don't just go up by that amount or wages don't go down by that amount

That's a feature of the plan. Rents will go up, and wages will go down, but by that point, people will be committed to UBI, and the only solution will be the gov to step in and control the prices.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#92

Post by LAMike »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #4
rocketpastsix wrote: post #2

Given everything that is going on, the case should be fairly straight forward to build. In fact, Yang has bene on top of it since Covid19 took hold in America. I truly hope UBI gains more popularity and strength going forward.

UBI has a lot of practical problems. Why not start at universal health care or wider affordability of affordable housing and education? Without that any UBI will immediately be eaten up by rising prices in these areas.

Health is a spectrum.

Mental health & physical health are problems easier solved with money.

Most major cities have rent control of some sort, if not, it's not that hard to start new towns with nation wide UBI. There are other places in this country other than SF, LA and NY

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#93

Post by mc32 »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

Maybe a small economy somewhere. There are small city-sized nation-states here and there around the world --both in industrialized areas and not so industrialized areas. They could try it in both and see what's what. $5MM isn't enough though.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#94

Post by LAMike »

macspoofing wrote: post #10

What is the actual case for Basic Income? I hear that it 'solves' the problem of automation ... except that it doesn't actually solve it AT ALL. If automation will lead to high unemployment, basic income will do nothing for that. It will send cash to people who aren't working so they can provide for basic necessities, but our welfare state already does that. And we know that segments of society that are wholly depend…

"What is the actual case for Basic Income?"

Ending homelessness and providing a bigger safety net for the citizens of the richest country on earth, for starters.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#95

Post by LAMike »

paulcole wrote: post #3

Why can’t we outsource basic income to the private sector? Like VCs who give money to people who want to sit at home instead of lighting money on fire to exploit taxi drivers?

Any 3 trillion dollar a year VC funds you know of?

I wonder who their LP's would be...

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#96

Post by LAMike »

rocketpastsix wrote: post #2

Given everything that is going on, the case should be fairly straight forward to build. In fact, Yang has bene on top of it since Covid19 took hold in America. I truly hope UBI gains more popularity and strength going forward.

"the case should be fairly straight forward to build"

Jack built an app for this exact use case.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#97

Post by hobs »

toohotatopic wrote: post #58
sokoloff wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

UBI is no good if it's not durable and reliable to the recipient. If you imagine that UBI would allow people to live with a lower level of stress around starvation, you have to imagine that they would want to rely on that income a decade from now. Saying "find a rich benefactor to decide to give money away" doesn't reasonably test anything meaningful about UBI. I can tell you that people will generally be happier if…

I haven't said 'find a rich benefactor', but 'be the benefactor'. There is no need to be rich. Spouses stay at home and are not worried if their partner has a regular job. It doesn't have to work for everybody. For starters, find somebody who can handle the risk of you losing your job. Of course people are happier if they get rich. But that's not what UBI is about. The question is: do people need a monetary buffer to…

You mean like children? Children need you to support them for years as a buffer before they can get on with life.

Society benefits as a whole when we foster the development of proper adults. If the development to making them a net contributor is not done yet, why would we stop?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#98

Post by jimbob45 »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

Were the US Coronavirus payouts not a small-scale test of UBI in themselves?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#99

Post by gamegoblin »

hhs wrote: post #84
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

It’s possible, Y Combinator Research seems to be doing just this with a randomized controlled trial study in two states: https://basicincome.ycr.org/our-plan

I believe what OP is getting at is you need a significant portion of a community to be receiving UBI to truly transform the local economy.

To use an example the Yang often uses: It may not be economically viable to set up a bakery in some small dying town. But if everyone in that town were receiving UBI, it might become viable, due to a change in the town's spending habits.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#100

Post by mberning »

I seriously don’t know why people believe this will work and unlock the latent poet or artist within the average joe. As far as I have read most experiments have had mixed results, and we don’t really know what the full impact will be if implemented in a nation of 350MM people. My suspicion is in a couple years people will notice that housing, food, and transportation has gone up commensurate with their “basic income”. Then we will find ourselves in a vicious battle to justify raising or lowering it every couple years. And forget about ever putting the genie back into the bottle. The risks are huge.
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