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Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

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Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#81

Post by dang »

Pfhreak wrote: post #32
exabrial wrote: post #8

Which is incredibly charitable! Opponents to UBI only oppose the income source being tax; which is a forced wealth transfer (opposite of my money my choice).

I'm a leftist person who isn't an opponent of ubi, but is an opponent of Yang's ubi. I have no problem with raising taxes, but I do have other concerns. Namely, if everyone got $x,xxx a month, how do we ensure that rents don't just go up by that amount or wages don't go down by that amount? I worry that without a well thought out plan, UBI just ends up funneling money directly back to the wealthy (eg, landlords and b…

What's Yang's answer about that? If he had a FAQ that would certainly be on it.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#82

Post by Tiktaalik »

LarryDarrell wrote: post #68
ravenstine wrote: post #44

I don't understand the optimism around UBI. UBI is a band-aid and a sign that a system is actually failing. I get why some people, especially intellectuals, want UBI, but they seem to believe that UBI is free of consequence. If society "needs" UBI, that means that not enough people can build wealth or that the welfare system isn't effective. Handing people money isn't going to change the fact that too much of the eco…

The optimism comes from a desperate desire not to confront the need for universal healthcare or land reform. As long as real estate is an investment and health care has a middle man, UBI is just a subsidy for those sectors.

Yep UBI is more guaranteed money into the hands of rent seeking landlords and co.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#83

Post by bhupy »

toomuchtodo wrote: post #9
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

US centric opinion: Social Security and Medicare are already UBI at large scale, but age tested (62 is the minimum age, 70 the max for social security benefits, age 65 qualified you for Medicare, US universal healthcare for seniors). Caveat: you needed to have worked and earned certain amounts to qualify for Medicare and your benefits level. To test at small scale, you'd need an endowment that would use the investmen…

A small nit: "Original Medicare" isn't really a UBI because you don't really get to choose your healthcare. A key benefit of a UBI is that the government provides cash to buy goods & services, rather than providing the goods & services themselves. Medicare is a government-run service, where the service is a combination of catastrophic insurance, cost-sharing, and general payment.

Medicare Part C, or Medicare Advantage, is much closer to a UBI than "Original Medicare". Nearly 40% of Medicare beneficiaries are enrolled in a Medicare Advantage plan.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#84

Post by hhs »

throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

It’s possible, Y Combinator Research seems to be doing just this with a randomized controlled trial study in two states: https://basicincome.ycr.org/our-plan

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#85

Post by LAMike »

ravenstine wrote: post #44

I don't understand the optimism around UBI. UBI is a band-aid and a sign that a system is actually failing. I get why some people, especially intellectuals, want UBI, but they seem to believe that UBI is free of consequence. If society "needs" UBI, that means that not enough people can build wealth or that the welfare system isn't effective. Handing people money isn't going to change the fact that too much of the eco…

> because they effectively own their oil industry

Why can't we, as a society, come together and take ownership of our data, and sell it back to the companies using our data for profit?

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#86

Post by toomuchtodo »

bhupy wrote: post #83
toomuchtodo wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

US centric opinion: Social Security and Medicare are already UBI at large scale, but age tested (62 is the minimum age, 70 the max for social security benefits, age 65 qualified you for Medicare, US universal healthcare for seniors). Caveat: you needed to have worked and earned certain amounts to qualify for Medicare and your benefits level. To test at small scale, you'd need an endowment that would use the investmen…

A small nit: "Original Medicare" isn't really a UBI because you don't really get to choose your healthcare. A key benefit of a UBI is that the government provides cash to buy goods & services, rather than providing the goods & services themselves. Medicare is a government-run service, where the service is a combination of catastrophic insurance, cost-sharing, and general payment. Medicare Part C, or Medicare Advantag…

Fair context to provide. In a previous comment [1], I argue the case for keeping both UBI and single payer healthcare.

Cash alone makes a poor safety net, because humans are humans.

[1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23246811

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#87

Post by daenz »

toohotatopic wrote: post #41
throwaway_jobs wrote: post #5

I don’t think there is any good way to test UBI at any small scale, I think there needs to be a critical mass of people who can pay their housing and food costs how society and economic activity would be reshaped under such a system.

Why do you need a critical mass? Everybody with an income can try it at any given moment: Find one or more persons who _you_ want to support and support them with a basic income. If UBI works, they will also start supporting other people. Sooner or later, you have an economy of people who support each other with UBI. Chances are that you are unlucky and your choice of seeding persons wasn't good. But for science, tha…

I've proposed this very idea to UBI supporters on many occasions, and they always seem to dodge and say it will only work if everyone does it through the government. It's apparently an all-or-nothing situation where the outcome of failure is catastrophic economic collapse. Doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#88

Post by LAMike »

LarryDarrell wrote: post #68
ravenstine wrote: post #44

I don't understand the optimism around UBI. UBI is a band-aid and a sign that a system is actually failing. I get why some people, especially intellectuals, want UBI, but they seem to believe that UBI is free of consequence. If society "needs" UBI, that means that not enough people can build wealth or that the welfare system isn't effective. Handing people money isn't going to change the fact that too much of the eco…

The optimism comes from a desperate desire not to confront the need for universal healthcare or land reform. As long as real estate is an investment and health care has a middle man, UBI is just a subsidy for those sectors.

People can afford healthier food with more money.

Real estate doesn't matter post C19 once office and schools are decentralized further each year.

Re: Jack Dorsey is giving Andrew Yang $5M to build the case for a basic income

#90

Post by ricefield »

LAMike wrote: post #85
ravenstine wrote: post #44

I don't understand the optimism around UBI. UBI is a band-aid and a sign that a system is actually failing. I get why some people, especially intellectuals, want UBI, but they seem to believe that UBI is free of consequence. If society "needs" UBI, that means that not enough people can build wealth or that the welfare system isn't effective. Handing people money isn't going to change the fact that too much of the eco…

> because they effectively own their oil industry Why can't we, as a society, come together and take ownership of our data, and sell it back to the companies using our data for profit?

It's not really your data though, how can you control / monetize it?
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