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Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

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Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#191

Post by lorthemar »

mmaunder wrote: post #9

This is why we need less humans on this planet. No one says that, because having as many kids as you like seems to be considered a basic human right. But imagine Earth with a stable 10% of our current population. Clean, abundant, and without the catastrophic extinction event already underway.

I don't think that would fix the issue. The majority of the pollution used to come from developed countries, now it comes from developing countries and their products are used by only the minority of the total population. Reducing the population would only make the surviving ones more lavish. I don't believe in humanity enough to see that work.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#192

Post by AnthonyMouse »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #136
ElKrist wrote: post #63

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Another point to balance the "how much environmental damage seems to be recovering": CO2 in the atmosphere has a long inertia. The (reduction of) emissions in the past few months will not have any effect on the global warming for a few decades. Basically in the short/mid-term, CO2 emissions are accumulated to previous emissions, not replacing them

This only shows that, while CO₂ concentrations are the dominant control variable in the question of our long-term survival, the overall health of the environment is influenced by many, many more things, especially short-term. Now it is especially clear that protecting the environment and mitigating the climate crisis are two different, and only partially aligned efforts. Frequently, they're in opposition - which is w…

> as soon we'll have to start rebuilding, and there will be less money and will around to fund R&D and deployment of less carbon-intensive solutions.

That isn't necessarily true. There is going to be a push for jobs programs to fight unemployment. Why can't some of the jobs be those types of things?

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#193

Post by saagarjha »

101404 wrote: post #190
pmorici wrote: post #122

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you, but pollution could have come from burning wood or coal for heating and cooking it isn’t all from industry.

That leads to the next question: why would Corona-stay-at-home stop people from cooking food or heating their homes?

Perhaps they are using natural gas instead of biomass?

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#194

Post by TeMPOraL »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #192
TeMPOraL wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This only shows that, while CO₂ concentrations are the dominant control variable in the question of our long-term survival, the overall health of the environment is influenced by many, many more things, especially short-term. Now it is especially clear that protecting the environment and mitigating the climate crisis are two different, and only partially aligned efforts. Frequently, they're in opposition - which is w…

> as soon we'll have to start rebuilding, and there will be less money and will around to fund R&D and deployment of less carbon-intensive solutions. That isn't necessarily true. There is going to be a push for jobs programs to fight unemployment. Why can't some of the jobs be those types of things?

I feel that most of cleantech work is still essentially a luxury, which will be hard to justify in a recession market. I also didn't mention the other aspect - how many of existing environmental protections and standards will have to be suspended because everyone will argue they can't afford to survive and recover if they have to stay clean?

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#195

Post by rorykoehler »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #188
rorykoehler wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was under the impression that micorplastics are acidifying the ocean and in turn kicking off a process that removes oxygen and creates dead zones?

I've never heard about that. As far as I know, acidification is caused by the oceans picking up CO₂ from the atmosphere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

A quick search seems to back you up. If that is the case how did sealife survive during times of high co2 concentrations historically?

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#196

Post by akie »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #186
akie wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know that the above response might seem like a pipe-dream to some, but let me assure you that there are governments and government officials that do stand up for the rule of law, and that are not easily bought by the highest bidder.

Yeah, but what I meant by my response is that, in this hypothetical scenario, the products themselves are fine. Nice, clean, safe, recyclable, whatnot. It's the manufacturing process that's polluting. You can't ban a product from being sold in your country on the grounds that manufacturing it in another country is an ecological disaster. Meanwhile, all those jobs are highly desirable (not just for your personal benef…

Well, it depends on the size of the country, does it? And on the mindset of the population.

If the EU tells you you can't produce anywhere in the EU because of how dirty your factory is, you can still produce it in the US or Russia and then ship it to the EU. However, your supply lines have just gotten more complicated, expensive, and error prone (because of distance) - so that's one part of the equation that a company has to take into consideration as well.

On top of that, I'm fairly sure there are quite a few Europeans who will applaud politicians who stand up against polluting or otherwise unethical companies, and who look down on (and not vote for) politicians who do shady deals with polluting companies.

So, as always - it's not so simple, and there's more than one dynamic at play.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#197

Post by ptha »

ohyeshedid wrote: post #131
trhway wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

isn't the 70B of farm animals just a part of the "7.5B humans" problem? Anyway, i think that it is a crying shame that we're still farming animals instead of growing artificial meat. Once we finally have artificial meat and thus stop killing sentient beings, i think that would result in a great leap in our conscience, empathy, etc. - it will unleash a great deal of human mental development with natural results in soc…

Every time I see discussions like this I never see thoughts on what to do with all those animals. What do you do with the 70B animals we're no longer consuming?

I'm not advocating it, but when there's a sudden decrease in demand (due to Covid-19 in this case), culling in various ways: https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/may/19/millions...

One quote from the article regarding media sharing tips for farmers: Most people do not understand the complexity of raising pigs and getting pork from the farm to their table. That means, “[a] good rule of thumb is to speak to a level a third grader [eight to 10 years old] would understand to ensure that things are not taken out of context.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#198

Post by TeMPOraL »

AnthonyMouse wrote: post #189
TeMPOraL wrote: post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, but what I meant by my response is that, in this hypothetical scenario, the products themselves are fine. Nice, clean, safe, recyclable, whatnot. It's the manufacturing process that's polluting. You can't ban a product from being sold in your country on the grounds that manufacturing it in another country is an ecological disaster. Meanwhile, all those jobs are highly desirable (not just for your personal benef…

> You can't ban a product from being sold in your country on the grounds that manufacturing it in another country is an ecological disaster. Why not? Constituents like it because it brings back the jobs that left because moving them out allowed companies to avoid environmental regulations, which they can now not avoid either way if they want to sell in your country and so might as well bring the jobs back.

> Constituents like it because it brings back the jobs that left

If it succeeds.

I guess you could do that; a sovereign state can try whatever they like. But has that ever actually happened? I can't think of any case where a country banned import of a product on the grounds that its manufacturing isn't up to environmental standards, even though the manufacturing happens in a different sovereign nation, and is compliant with that other nation's standards. I imagine trying to do that would quickly escalate the issue from business to international politics.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#199

Post by im3w1l »

rorykoehler wrote: post #195
TeMPOraL wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've never heard about that. As far as I know, acidification is caused by the oceans picking up CO₂ from the atmosphere. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ocean_acidification

A quick search seems to back you up. If that is the case how did sealife survive during times of high co2 concentrations historically?

It's not that high CO2 is intrinsically bad. It's just that the change is happening quicker than a lot of species can adapt.

Re: Mount Everest is visible from Kathmandu for first time in living memory

#200

Post by vl »

acslater00 wrote: post #46

It's amazing and wonderful how much environmental damage seems to be recovering. Air pollution is down, carbon emissions are down as much as 17%, fish and sharks are repopulating shorelines and beaches - and to think, all it took was the most severe public health crisis in 100 years, a catastrophic global recession, and an overpowering wave of human misery and death

>a catastrophic global recession

Is it catastrophic though? Market doesn’t seem to think so.

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