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My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

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Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#211

Post by agentultra »

count wrote: post #204
agentultra wrote: post #137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly the kind of thing I'm talking about though. I believe a lot of this bad advice stems from thie belief that "other people write bad software." When you run into bugs day in and out, it's easy to reinforce this belief. Afterall, how can someone who claims to have all this experience and knowledge make such an obvious mistake? They're paid a salary and millions of people trust their software! I could do…

I empathize with what you are saying, but I don't agree. I think it's crucial to recognize the difference between what I'm talking about, and what happens when people with experience make mistakes. Environment matters, tremendously. If you're an amateur hack, selling your 3rd rate skills to customers who don't know any better, and you're lack of capability is hurting people because your software is being exploited, t…

I think we're really talking about two different issues.

I'm not even talking about doing something as silly as charging a client money for something you barely know how to do. That's just deceptive business practice and people should be lambasted for it. Misrepresenting your capabilities is reprehensible.

What I'm talking about and what I think the OP was talking about is the negative attitude we have towards our fellow geeks. We discourage people from learning or trying their own ideas out. I think that's pretty sad. Even if they are re-inventing the wheel; let them try, man. Maybe they will end up with a better wheel. Or a special kind of wheel. You never know if you just tell them that it's already been done and they couldn't possibly build a better one anyway.

So while I agree that some sort of safeguard against malicious business practices would be useful to the industry as a whole, I don't think it has anything to do with supporting a negative attitude towards our fellow geeks. Everyone has started somewhere and it's better to foster and encourage learning and experimentation than to institutionalize the practice of programming.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#212

Post by reinhardt »

shaggyfrog wrote: post #173
kstenerud wrote: post #89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between "You're wrong and here's why", and "You did X??? What are you, stupid? You suck and you should just gtfo because you'll never amount to anything. You'd be so fired if you worked in my company. Bullet. Brain. Make the connection." Both are uncompromising. Only one is civil.

But both are personal. A better take would be "This solution/process/method is wrong and here's why". Make it about the issue, not the person.

Unfortunately not even this works for many/most regular (read: non geek) folks:

"Why prove to a man he is wrong? Is that going to make him like you? Why not let him save face? He didn't ask for your opinion. He didn't want it. Why argue with him? You can't win an argument, because if you lose, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior, you hurt his pride, insult his intelligence, his judgement, and his self-respect, and he'll resent your triumph. That will make him strike back, but it will never make him want to change his mind. A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still." - Dale Carnegie, 1936

Sigh.. sometime I feel I'm of a different species from people that take almost everything personally.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#214

Post by Alex3917 »

nhangen wrote: post #203
Alex3917 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...bashing until the person takes their ball and goes home." And that's often a good outcome. Consider for example this article published recently by a Connecticut state senator on why she wants to put people in jail for having 'fake weed'. http://newcanaan.patch.com/articles/fake-pot-a-new-threat-to... The entire article was riddled with sloppy thinking, and thoroughly plagiarized, so I got all of reddit to utterly…

Since when does being wrong revoke someone's right to express said wrong opinion? This: "I got all of reddit to utterly destroy her" is the exact type of mentality that myself, and as I estimate, the OP, have a problem with.

"Since when does being wrong revoke someone's right to express said wrong opinion?"

No one's revoking her right to express an opinion, we're just revoking her right to make shit up. If she was familiar with the facts and she was still against marijuana reform then no one would begrudge her of that, but she doesn't get a free pass to lie to the public.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#215

Post by reinhardt »

chrisrhoden wrote: post #134
jokermatt999 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To further my attempt at inserting George Orwell's Politics and the English Language into every conversation, I think this quote applies. :-) The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted…

The anti-hipster culture is hilarious. It is impossible for me to read this without pointing out that after a very well-reasoned and largely accurate argument against the completely irrational spite, you close with a (admittedly small) taste of the very disgust you just denounced. "I luckily rarely come across 'hipsters'." It's pervasive, even in the group itself. Hipster doesn't actually mean anything specific to an…

Agreed; Hipster Hitler is still damn funny though ;)

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#216

Post by huertanix »

pdaviesa wrote: post #192
jrwoodruff wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've heard stories that Steve Jobs can often be a condescending asshole. I'm certain the same is true for other highly accomplished folks as well; if condescension were linked to confidence, wouldn't highly accomlished individuals such as this be amazingly generous and helpful? I think the bit about superiority may be true: it is a way to demonstrate superiority, but I don't believe that immediately indicates low con…

Some of the most successful people are very insecure. That's one of the factors that drives them relentlessly forward - the fear that everyone will find out their not actually good enough.

I think "drives them relentlessly forward" is a part of the conversation we're missing out on. Useful feedback can come from anywhere, even an asshole. Waiting for insight from only expert communicators seems like a way to slow down one's progress.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#217

Post by dools »

crux wrote: post #40
dools wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's a noun I've used to attach the adjective sanctimonious to which adds more emphasis than the word "person" would have, and also confirms to the reader that I disapprove of a holier than thou attitude.

To be honest, I thought you were being sarcastic. OP was all about how people ought to be less harsh, less judgmental, more open-minded, kinder and more welcoming. 'Fuckwit' might as well be the poster child for the culture of unquestioning, caustic certitude of which he disapproves.

"'Fuckwit' might as well be the poster child for the culture of unquestioning, caustic certitude of which he disapproves"

Hmm. You're right. In hindsight I definitely should have said fuckTARD.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#218

Post by arcwhite »

chrisrhoden wrote: post #134
jokermatt999 wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To further my attempt at inserting George Orwell's Politics and the English Language into every conversation, I think this quote applies. :-) The words democracy, socialism, freedom, patriotic, realistic, justice have each of them several different meanings which cannot be reconciled with one another. In the case of a word like democracy, not only is there no agreed definition, but the attempt to make one is resisted…

The anti-hipster culture is hilarious. It is impossible for me to read this without pointing out that after a very well-reasoned and largely accurate argument against the completely irrational spite, you close with a (admittedly small) taste of the very disgust you just denounced. "I luckily rarely come across 'hipsters'." It's pervasive, even in the group itself. Hipster doesn't actually mean anything specific to an…

Well, by that logic, we should abandon all labels altogether. Down with identification of groups of people! Cast off the oppressive shackles of classification!

Down here in Australia, "Hipsters" are an easily recognizable and quite specific cultural subgroup: Thick-rim glasses, no actual vision impediment to justify them, Impractically skinny jeans, Borderline offensively cliched facial hair (ie. Hercule Poirot-esque moustaches) and - most importantly - Irrational dislike of anything "mainstream" or "commercial" (with little/no other justification)

It's no longer meaningful counter-culture, it's become a very specific subculture in and of itself (at least down here) - a culture I would describe not as counter-culture, but anti-culture. It's ceased to be productive and meaningful, and simply become (like Monty Python's Argument Clinic) the automatic gainsay of anything "mainstream".

I've no tolerance for it, because (in my opinion, at least) it's highly pretentious and offers very little in the way of positive change. I find that subculture to be, in general, very negative (often for very little reason).

When I talk about Hipsters, I'm generally referring not to the dress, but to the attitude. Maybe you're right, and I should be referring to those specific attitudes as what I take issue with - but sometimes convenient (if inaccurate) labels make communication faster.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#219

Post by dools »

elptacek wrote: post #77
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

It has taken me half a lifetime to grow a "thick skin" against comments like this. It's lame to admit, but I've abandoned half a dozen really cool projects in the face of feedback like this. Being a parent has made me realize that there's a word for people who react this way: bully. In teaching my kids to cope with it, I'm teaching myself, too. They were pretty surprised to hear that bullies act out of insecurity.

There was a post here a little while ago from the 37signals blog "There's no room for just shitting on someone else's work" in response to the "read the fucking hig" website.

In that post, the author says "... they're creating something, and that's awesome".

I became a parent (nearly) 1 year ago and when I read this phrase it really put this whole "geek wars" thing into perspective. If my child grows up to be passionate enough to create anything I'll be so pleased. I wouldn't even care if it were good or bad. There are so many worse things that a person can do in the world than create things, we should all just be heaping praise on each other for even trying to do something great.

Being a parent does wonders for your perspective on life :)

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#220

Post by guelo »

stitchy wrote: post #30

I think that the issue of open hostility in online communities stems from Anonymity more than anything else. Most people are very conciliatory face to face. Honestly, I'd prefer something between open hostility and straight up pacification. I definitely want constructive criticism, which is why I tend to like Hacker News. The comments that I have seen here tend to be more constructive than other places on the intertu…

There is something about hiding behind machines that makes people treat each other much worse. I've noticed this in traffic jam situations, when everybody is hiding behind a couple tons of steel people are much more rude than, for example waiting in a human line, with everybody cutting each other off, flipping the finger, honking horns, etc. There's been a couple times where someone who has been rude on the road pulls up next to me at a stop and I wave, smile, say hello, and they act completely awkward and apparently ashamed.
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