While I generally agree with the statement, my personal experience says that hardcore drilling is the most effective way of teaching sometimes.
My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
171–180 of 249 posts
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#172Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since we're talking about giving feedback, I think a more apt analogy is what happens when people with Honda Civics want to race . Australian billionaire Kerry Packer was a notorious gambler. A legend about him is that at a poker tournament, he was challenged to play a high-stakes game by a Texan who bragged, "I'm worth $60 million." His response was to nonchalantly pull out a coin and ask, "Heads or tails?"
At the risk of sounding dense... So did he imply that he was betting $60 million on the flip of a coin? I don't get why he would do that?
According to wikipedia, he was worth 6,5 billion. So probably the $60 million just didn't matter to him so much.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#173What would we think of an American who walked into an Egyptian coffeehouse or a Japanese board room and interpreted all the behavior he saw there as if he were seeing it in a church in Iowa? It's fine to demand that geeks develop some social sophistication, but it's also fine to expect that non-geeks will have enough social sophistication not to rush to judgment about behavior in an unfamiliar cultural context. Cultu…
There's a huge difference between "You're wrong and here's why", and "You did X??? What are you, stupid? You suck and you should just gtfo because you'll never amount to anything. You'd be so fired if you worked in my company. Bullet. Brain. Make the connection." Both are uncompromising. Only one is civil.
But both are personal. A better take would be "This solution/process/method is wrong and here's why". Make it about the issue, not the person.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#174I'm happy to point out one thing: this is less true on Hacker News. More broadly, this is less true in the "Startup Scene".
Even though a lot of us come from an engineering background, I've always seen people get great feedback, helpful and not condescending at all. This is even more true for people's "Review my startup" posts, which usually present a pretty early beta, but tend to get great responses.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#175Earlier quoted context omitted.
Since we're talking about giving feedback, I think a more apt analogy is what happens when people with Honda Civics want to race . Australian billionaire Kerry Packer was a notorious gambler. A legend about him is that at a poker tournament, he was challenged to play a high-stakes game by a Texan who bragged, "I'm worth $60 million." His response was to nonchalantly pull out a coin and ask, "Heads or tails?"
At the risk of sounding dense... So did he imply that he was betting $60 million on the flip of a coin? I don't get why he would do that?
In the world of high-stakes gamblers, you're judged more on how much you're willing to gamble than how much $ you're actually worth. So that was an FU on multiple levels.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#176Earlier quoted context omitted.
You can be very, very good at what you do and still be insecure.
true, but the juxtaposition should then have been between "insecure" and "secure", not between "insecure" (personality trait) and "excellent" (skill level).
It's possible that you just may be insecure about your comfort zone of categorizing things ;)
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#177Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…
I would say that some fields use it as a tool to weed out those that cannot act under pressure. There are some activities in life where if you cannot deal with condescending feedback then you probably cannot work in the field at all.
This seems circular to me.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#178Earlier quoted context omitted.
I would say that some fields use it as a tool to weed out those that cannot act under pressure. There are some activities in life where if you cannot deal with condescending feedback then you probably cannot work in the field at all.
This seems circular to me.
No, not really. If, while teaching the basics, they break under the criticism then it isn't worth their going on.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#179Earlier quoted context omitted.
I seem to recall that there are studies showing that venting isn't an effective tool to make you feel better, despite the popular "catharsis" meme. I can't find them right now, but here's a quote: http://www.bakadesuyo.com/a-few-more-things-pop-psychology-h... In any case, if somebody feels the need to vent, I hope they don't do it where I end up reading them. ^^
There was an episode of Penn & Teller's Bullshit that pretty much says the same. If you have Netflix streaming, it's Episode 10 here: http://movies.netflix.com/WiMovie/Penn_Teller_Bullsh_t_Seaso...
Elliot Aronson mentions a few studies in his "The Social Animal" book starting on page 263. I'll just briefly list the studies mentioned, in case anyone is interested:
- Bushman, B. (2002). Does venting anger feed or extinguish the flame? Catharsis, rumination, distraction, anger and aggressive responding. Personality & Social Psychology Bulletin, 28, 724-731
- Patterson, A. (1974, September). Hostility catharsis: A naturalistic quasi-experiment. paper presented at the annual convention of the American Psychological Assiociation, New Orleans.
- Geen, R. (1981). Spectator moods at an aggresive sports event. Journal of Social Psychology, 3, 217-227.
- Glass, D. (1964). Changes in liking as a means of reducing cognitive discrepancies between self-esteem and aggression. Journal of Personality, 32, 531-549.
- Davis, K.E., & Jones, E.E. (1960). Changes in interpersonal perception as a means of reducing cognitive dissonance. Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 61, 402-410.
The conclusion seems to be a resounding no. Venting anger does not help, neither verbally nor physically.
Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.
#180Earlier quoted context omitted.
I see it this way: The only reason to give condescending feedback is to demonstrate your superiority over the person you're criticizing. If you truly wanted to be helpful, you'd be giving helpful feedback. If you were truly confident in your own abilities, you wouldn't feel the need to demonstrate your superiority.
I think condescending feedback = insecurity is a bit of a generalization.Maybe sometimes it is true but not all the time - for example Linus' "feedback" on CVS was pretty condescending but I doubt that was because he was insecure
It's definitely a generalization; it just seems to be a reasonably reliable one :).
I suppose the insecurity doesn't have to be about domain knowledge, either - it could be about communication skills. Perhaps some people giving condescending feedback don't feel like they are able to communicate in any other way. They experience the desire to contribute, but aren't confident in their tutoring skills and don't want to risk sounding stupid by bungling an explanation.
This is admittedly pure speculation...