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My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

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Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#151

Post by dexen »

bartonfink wrote: post #33
dexen wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is reinventing the wheel and reinventing the wheel. It's cute when a person, learning as she goes, comes up with something that's been already invented. Only goes to show she understands the field. [1] It's unbelievably irritating when something that was widely implemented 10 or 20 or 30 years ago (and then even improved significantly) is now asserted as the next big thing. C'mon, be serious -_-' [2] [1] a nice…

Garbage collection back in the 90's. Java really ran with that one.

"We were not out to win over the Lisp programmers; we were after the C++ programmers. We managed to drag a lot of them about halfway to Lisp."

- Guy Steele, Java spec co-author

http://www.paulgraham.com/quotes.html

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#152

Post by haberman »

I've had lots of moments where I let bitterness get the best of me, and started flaming. Upon reflection, I think I understand why.

As programmers, we are part of a giant ecosystem of software. What one programmer does affects another, even for two people who don't directly work together. This is unlike (say) sports. If there are other skateboarders who have terrible form, it doesn't affect me.

On the other hand, if a large number of people make what I perceive to be a bad engineering decision, like using SOAP (SOAP's safe to hate on these days, right?), that affects me because I'll have to write software that interfaces with their systems that use a terrible protocol.

And if I see a person arguing in favor of a terrible idea like SOAP, I perceive that they are not only using SOAP themselves, but encouraging others to do so also -- if they succeed my life gets even harder. If other people seem to be agreeing that it's a good idea, instead of recognizing it for the insanity that it is, the frustration grows. And if the person is arguing in a self-righteous way, that makes it seem justified to be snippy back.

It's probably not the most healthy reaction, but there you have it. This is what led me to post rants in the past like: http://developers.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=446030&ci...

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#153

Post by khafra »

nmaio wrote: post #149
Alex3917 wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"...bashing until the person takes their ball and goes home." And that's often a good outcome. Consider for example this article published recently by a Connecticut state senator on why she wants to put people in jail for having 'fake weed'. http://newcanaan.patch.com/articles/fake-pot-a-new-threat-to... The entire article was riddled with sloppy thinking, and thoroughly plagiarized, so I got all of reddit to utterly…

I'm probably in the minority with this, but... If someone's ignorance cannot be altered or at least reasonably discussed, I think that's perfectly okay. That just means it's time for me to move on. I don't see how attacking or embarrassing someone would make you feel better about your side of things. I'd much rather let that person enjoy their own ignorance. Note: I tend to lack/block out very strong emotions

Non-infectious ignorance can be left alone. A state senator with a PR platform, using it to spread ignorance of a sort that ruins millions of lives, cannot be left alone in good conscience.

You have a moral obligation to be less wrong: http://www.wrongbot.com/2011/02/27/stop-being-wrong-a-moral-...

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#154

Post by HSO »

timknauf wrote: post #146
HSO wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

judging from media reports/biographies, a lot of our "tech heroes" would then have counted as "insecure"?! don't know about that. i've gotten to know some people who i consider brilliant or at least very, very good at what they do and, judging from my own small sample, they've been all over the place in terms of manners/considerateness. i don't think this is a valid classification scheme...

You can be very, very good at what you do and still be insecure.

true, but the juxtaposition should then have been between "insecure" and "secure", not between "insecure" (personality trait) and "excellent" (skill level).

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#155

Post by tptacek »

blhack wrote: post #136
tptacek wrote: post #122

The author's point is well taken. But: * Stop using comic sans * What are you, illiterate? * Tables? What is this, the 1990s? Ha ha ha!. * This design looks like myspace * You're using the default hashing algorithm in mysql instead of bcrypt? * God I hate the arduino. It's not real hacking. Which of these things is not like-the ooooother ?

One of them offers a solution (use bcrypt). It's the delivery that matters.

It's true, but it's also the case that that's the only non-subjective point in the list. You can zip it on things like Comic Sans and table layout, but you probably shouldn't hold your tongue on security flaws.

I agree, delivery counts.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#156

Post by [deleted] »

elptacek wrote: post #77
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

It has taken me half a lifetime to grow a "thick skin" against comments like this. It's lame to admit, but I've abandoned half a dozen really cool projects in the face of feedback like this. Being a parent has made me realize that there's a word for people who react this way: bully. In teaching my kids to cope with it, I'm teaching myself, too. They were pretty surprised to hear that bullies act out of insecurity.

[deleted]

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#157

Post by bane »

In most cases, there's a social normative function that teaches people that this kind of behavior doesn't work. Are you an asshole in real life? People won't deal with you and you'll find yourself shut out of many social opportunities. People tend to learn to stop being assholes real quick when everybody else gets an office birthday party and they don't.

The problem with life on the Internet is that this social normative function doesn't work. Are you an asshole that nobody will talk to? No problem! Just invite yourself to the office parties and start running your mouth!

Admin lock out your account from your favorite forum because of flame wars? No problem! There's a million other forums you can head to and be a complete jerk in!

There are exceptions, HN for example is fairly unique in terms of the social environment it provides, and flaming out here can have consequences, hence people tend to behave a bit better here in order to maintain their social status in the group.

However, in addition to behavior and tone, down arrows represent a kind of social normative function that includes semantics that might push people towards a kind of consensus in group think (flags usually deal with purely bad behavior). The problem is that it's very hard on HN to have a dissenting opinion without getting knocked down a few points. If want to keep socializing here, you either conform or get out.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#158

Post by AndyKelley »

zach wrote: post #88
blhack wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To use the cliche'd car analogy: People driving ferraris generally don't go around trying to race people with honda civics. They know that they have an absurdly fast car, they don't need to tell you. But the 17 year old kid with the modded civic wants to prove himself, so he's much more likely to try and race everything that moves. If you're Mark Zuckerberg, you don't need to point out that you're more successful tha…

Since we're talking about giving feedback, I think a more apt analogy is what happens when people with Honda Civics want to race . Australian billionaire Kerry Packer was a notorious gambler. A legend about him is that at a poker tournament, he was challenged to play a high-stakes game by a Texan who bragged, "I'm worth $60 million." His response was to nonchalantly pull out a coin and ask, "Heads or tails?"

At the risk of sounding dense...

So did he imply that he was betting $60 million on the flip of a coin? I don't get why he would do that?

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#159

Post by Perceval »

andywood wrote: post #133
sophacles wrote: post #74

I'm reminded of something a wise man once told me (HNified a bit): In every pairwise conversation there are 6 people: 1. Alice 2. Bob 3. Who Alice thinks she is. 4. Who Bob thinks he is. 5. Who Bob thinks Alice is 6. Who Alice things Bob is. Perception plays an absurdly large part in communication, as do nonverbal cues. Frequently we adjust our message based on feedback we get from the listener. Those lacking "social…

The enumeration at the top of your comment is the best thing I've read yet today. Douglas Hofstadter expands on similar ideas in I Am a Strange Loop .

That enumeration has its origins in Freud, if I remember correctly.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#160

Post by jokermatt999 »

swix wrote: post #111
count wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here, here! Learning someething, and selling (for money, or otherwise) the not-acceptable-for-use side effect of your learning something as a 'finished' product can be dangerous to the end customer. Not being able to skateboard well means you're going to fall and bust your knees or elbows or face. It's dangerous to you, and potentially comedic to your compatriots. Publishing a website full of XSS/SQLI problems and st…

You probably have one of the most poisonous perspectives one can have in this type of thing, this is exactly why the world sucks. There _NEVER_ is a reason to give "harsh" feedback, go read some kevin pollak or study psychology, humans are not "dogs" giving harsh or stupid feedback wont change the broken product. Offer your help, "Holy shit dude you have a XSS/SQLI in there, lets fix that up before you get in trouble…

That last line is completely unnecessary, and rather ironic considering you were chastising someone for harsh feedback.
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