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Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

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21–30 of 283 posts

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#21
post #5

>"Whenever looted cultural property is found in this country, the United States government will do all it can to preserve heritage by returning such artifacts where they belong" So what is the definition of "looted" here? Museums are full of things that fit various definitions of that word.

There are a few clear lines you can draw.

Many institutions built their collections through a practice known as partage or division of finds. They would go to a government and offer their services as archeologists in exchange for a portion of their finds. While this practice is rare post-1970, there's not any serious debate about the legitimacy of cultural heritage exported under this regime.

Purchases from the antiquities markets are also considered legitimate, assuming the export was originally done with the permission of the originating country.

Where things really get questionable is when material culture was extracted by imperial power or as spoils of war. The Rosetta Stone is the most famous example. Also, you've got things like the Elgin Marbles that were taken through fraud and subterfuge a long time ago. These kinds of things are grandfathered in as a legal matter, but there's a moral argument for returning them anyway.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#22
post #5

>"Whenever looted cultural property is found in this country, the United States government will do all it can to preserve heritage by returning such artifacts where they belong" So what is the definition of "looted" here? Museums are full of things that fit various definitions of that word.

i think looting relates to desired material or financial gain vs historical or cultural revelation niether of them would be immune to criticism but i think archeology has at least a foot to stand on

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#23

take that, L. Bob Rife. (the similarities between hobby lobby stealing tablets and religiously motivated tech magnates doing the same in a certain cyberpunk book of wide repute are, as usual, a bit eerie)

Maybe the downvoted are for lack of on topic and substantive response, but I really appreciated the Snow Crash reference. I thought it was funny.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Oy vey. I don't know how serious this is but it's not a great look. Is this kind of thing common in the art world? Sure. The British museum used to be fairly brazen about the fact that they'd loot less-developed countries for cultural artifacts. Who do you think used to sponsor archaeology expeditions? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Museum#Controversies

Err... my comment was referring to the sales tax evasion. I'm aware that the looting of cultural artifacts is an age-old practice, that's only recently been legislated against.

If your New York business sells something to someone in Oklahoma, you don't have to charge NY sales tax. That's not controversial or a grey area (edit: until 2018). I don't know exactly how they structured this transaction, but if it ended up in Oklahoma it seems to be within the spirit of the law.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#25

> "Whenever looted cultural property is found in this country, the United States government will do all it can to preserve heritage by returning such artifacts where they belong," How does this tablet differ from any other artifact in a museum? Couldn't it be argued that any ancient artifact from another culture is stolen?

> How does this tablet differ from any other artifact in a museum? Couldn't it be argued that any ancient artifact from another culture is stolen?

Lots of the early archeology exported antiquities legally. At the time most of the Middle East, Greece included, was ruled by the Ottoman Empire that granted official permissions for western archeologists to take objects or even whole buildings and edifices. I'm not well enough versed in the topic to know what deals covered these actions, whether they were shady in some degree or if the Empire just didn't care that much.

One of the more famous and contentious examples is the Elgin Marbles: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elgin_Marbles

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#26
post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Err... my comment was referring to the sales tax evasion. I'm aware that the looting of cultural artifacts is an age-old practice, that's only recently been legislated against.

If your New York business sells something to someone in Oklahoma, you don't have to charge NY sales tax. That's not controversial or a grey area (edit: until 2018). I don't know exactly how they structured this transaction, but if it ended up in Oklahoma it seems to be within the spirit of the law.

> If your New York business sells something to someone in Oklahoma, you don't have to charge NY sales tax

Are you sure about that? It seems that at least online businesses don't work that way.[1]

1. https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/self-employment-taxes/s...

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#27

> "Whenever looted cultural property is found in this country, the United States government will do all it can to preserve heritage by returning such artifacts where they belong," How does this tablet differ from any other artifact in a museum? Couldn't it be argued that any ancient artifact from another culture is stolen?

I think it's basically a function of when the artifact was taken. Older generations (I'm thinking pre 1900s) of historians, archeologists and explorers didn't think anything of it. And often in the colonial era, there wasn't a native government or state that could take possession of those artifacts. From reading history books, I think there was more of a finders-keepers mentality back then. EDIT: from reading another…

It also breaks apart a potential comprehensive collection. The Mayan collection from the Guatemalan government is currently in a traveling tour. Saw it in Vancouver as a special exhibit and it was a truly great exhibit that would be impossible if all those pieces were in different collections around the world.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#28
what a bizarre timeline we live in

(edit: to be clear what I mean is that it's extremely bizarre that a discount tchochke store in the US would own an extremely precious Mesopotamian artifact in the first place, not bizarre that justice is actually being done about it)

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#29

I wonder how many soldier millionaires have been made by the War in Iraq. A small shot at wealth, a low risk of death, maybe going to war there as an individual isn't too bad.

According to the most recent study data (2017), an average of 16 veterans commits suicide every day here in the US. Claiming that it "isn't so bad" is remarkably callous.

Re: Authorities say Hobby Lobby's Gilgamesh tablet is stolen, must go back to Iraq

#30

Kind of sad all around. The table was essentially rescued from ignominy. But of course it belongs to Iraq. Then it'll probably just disappear again. Sigh.

> Then it'll probably just disappear again. Sigh.

What are you basing that on?

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