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My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

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Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#101

Post by sliverstorm »

MrJagil wrote: post #59
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Can someone please explain the logic behind "condescending feedback = insecurity"? And I mean that sincerely. I have been thinking about this for a long time now, and I just cannot come up with any supporting evidence to explain the corelation. It might sound like a stupid request, but I think it is a hard argument to make totally water proof.

There's two ways to be better than other people; to rise above them, or to drag them down. Bullies want to feel important just like everyone else, but they are not confident in their own abilities, so they are afraid to try growing themselves, because they fear they will prove to themselves they are as stupid as they fear they are. (the ol', too afraid of failure to succeed) They are naturally left with either accepting they are a failure, or throwing other people under the bus.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#102

Post by ScottBurson »

dexen wrote: post #46
edw519 wrote: post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Each of the `Excellent xxx' response you give differs in two important hitches from the `Insecure xxx': 1) it requires much common context, understanding, experience. Everybody will understand a ``this sucks'' response, regardless of the reasoning behind it being clear. Understanding a, and building better solution on, an involved response requires common understanding, common experience, between the parties of commu…

> What the heck is a 4/2 split?

OT, but in case you're actually wondering, it refers to the number of cards of a given suit held by each of the defenders. In bridge, there are four players, conventionally called North, East, South, and West; after the auction, one player becomes declarer; let's say that's South. In this case, North, across the table, is dummy, and East and West, on either side, are defenders. Dummy's cards are turned face up so everyone can see them; declarer plays both her own hand and dummy's.

When declarer sees a total of seven clubs (let's say) in her own and dummy's hand, she knows that the defenders have six clubs between them, but she doesn't in general know how many each defender has; this is called the "split". A 3/3 split means each has three; a 4/2 split means one has four and the other has two. Usually, even splits favor declarer while uneven splits favor the defenders, but there are exceptions.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#103

Post by cullend »

Wolf_Larsen wrote: post #63
dansingerman wrote: post #51

I disagree with this. The difference in the examples cited is not sports vs hackers, it's communication in real life vs over the interwebs. In my experience most hackers are perfectly pleasant in person, happy to help if asked, and not substantially different to how the article describes the skaters. Conversely, I bet if you look at some skater videos on youtube they would be full of sarcasm and piss-taking (well the…

I agree with you. One of the things to learn in life is who to listen to and who to ignore. I can align with the author - being around people who do not accept mistakes or shortcomings as part of a positive learning process is frustrating - but saying that "Geeks" do this too often and more than other circles is untrue. That idiot should just quit writing blog posts.

Not really. I hang out with homeless people, hippies, frat guys, and any group I can work my way into.

Geeks ARE angry. They seem to have shittons of pentup rage

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#104

Post by nerfhammer »

stcredzero wrote: post #90
ahoyhere wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They should learn it themselves. There are books & training courses on the subject. But people rarely seek these out because they are so defensive about their deficiencies that they turn even those into a contention -- they say "this is just the way I am, take it or leave it."

Think of it as evolution in action. (And I shall take this whole post as a call to clean up my act.)

So all we have to do it just wait a few generations, and...

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#105

Post by Alex3917 »

nhangen wrote: post #87
Alex3917 wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with." The problem is that when people start mouthing off about factual issues they don't know anything about they can cause a lot of damage, so crushing them is often a necessity. When you're in a situation where there is a lot of potential for damage and the other person isn't willing to have an intellectually honest debate about th…

That comment: "The problem is that when people start mouthing off about factual issues they don't know anything about they can cause a lot of damage, so crushing them is often a necessity." Is exactly the type of thing that comes from the hive mind, and is why it's impossible to be a dissenter. It's usually "you don't know what you are talking about," followed by bashing until the person takes their ball and goes hom…

"...bashing until the person takes their ball and goes home."

And that's often a good outcome. Consider for example this article published recently by a Connecticut state senator on why she wants to put people in jail for having 'fake weed'.

http://newcanaan.patch.com/articles/fake-pot-a-new-threat-to...

The entire article was riddled with sloppy thinking, and thoroughly plagiarized, so I got all of reddit to utterly destroy her until she deleted all of her comments and wrote a followup stating that the issue was no longer a top priority of hers. I tried to engage her respectfully first, but since she wasn't willing to engage in an intellectually honest debate then going out and fucking up her day seemed like the second best option. Overall I'd consider it a win. Sure it would have been better to get her to change her opinion, but once it becomes clear that no amount of facts or logic her will persuade her then embarrassing her until she shuts the fuck up becomes the best option left on the table.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#106

Post by jgroome »

The old stereotype of the socially awkward nerd is just as true now as it ever was. The points the author brings up are classic signs of lack of ability to articulate in a social context.

It's not a popular thing to say but programming and hacking is, at the end of the day, a mostly solitary endeavour. Why would someone who spends most of their time stuck in their own head know how to converse about technical matters, especially when it's online and behind a wall of anonymity?

I'm not saying all geeks are antisocial. I'm saying that the kind of person who would call another an idiot over a minor disagreement isn't demonstrating a lack of confidence but rather an inability to communicate in a friendly way.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#107

Post by tomkarlo »

dansingerman wrote: post #51

I disagree with this. The difference in the examples cited is not sports vs hackers, it's communication in real life vs over the interwebs. In my experience most hackers are perfectly pleasant in person, happy to help if asked, and not substantially different to how the article describes the skaters. Conversely, I bet if you look at some skater videos on youtube they would be full of sarcasm and piss-taking (well the…

Granted, but unlike skateboarders, the developer community depends on online interaction as their _primary_ form of community / communication / learning. So the faceless nature of net communication may affect the overall tone of the community and experience if its members more.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#108

Post by jsmcgd »

Alex3917 wrote: post #66
knowtheory wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been c…

"Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with." The problem is that when people start mouthing off about factual issues they don't know anything about they can cause a lot of damage, so crushing them is often a necessity. When you're in a situation where there is a lot of potential for damage and the other person isn't willing to have an intellectually honest debate about th…

Making someone look like a moron can be done with tact :) I would say that this is essential and more effective. Doing it without tact makes everything you say easier to dismiss.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#110

Post by rbarooah »

What the poster misses is that many people don't come to online forums for just polite intelligent discussion. You might as well tell football fans to be quiet so everyone can concentrate on the game better.

Is he comparing online forums with in-person experiences?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQFKtI6gn9Y&feature=youtu...

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