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Termux and Android 10

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Re: Termux and Android 10

#301

Post by dTal »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #81
mmsimanga wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

7) It's way easier to find someone you know to help you on Windows than Linux, for now. I visit my parents once a year and always mark out a day to spend fixing/updating/removing junk on my dad's Windows laptop. Three times I installed Linux and when I came back the following year Windows was back on the laptop. The reason being people just know Windows where I am from and the moment they see Linux they feel that's t…

I have installed Ubuntu to my mom and my wife's parents PCs and I never ever spent time having to worry about those computers again. They instantly learn where the browser, skype and printer menu is, and NEVER have a problem with a computer again. I also never worried about antiviruses and malware since. They are all in their 70s. No regular user has a problem with Ubuntu these days, but they regularly did have all k…

I have both user stories.

I put Debian on the laptop of one relative, and never had to support him again (almost - he needed help setting up a printer once, which I was able to do entirely on my phone using CUPS' web interface over an SSH tunnel). I dist-upgrade him every couple of years. Totally painless. But his needs are modest - a web browser and an email client mostly keep him happy.

I have another relative who mostly uses her X220 laptop to write in Microsoft Word, and she is constantly having computer troubles. Shitty battery life (Windows keeps resetting power management to "max performance"), fans constantly blasting, endless file management issues and no backups. I am constantly having to support her, and Microsoft Windows makes that a royal pain. I knew she was going to kill that machine eventually, so I got her another X220 as a cheap backup computer, which had no OS and so I put Debian on it. I was right, her computer died, she ended up being forced to use the Debian machine, which netted her among other things triple battery life. But she was so tunnel-visioned into her particular idiosyncratic workflow (see https://xkcd.com/763/) that every minor hiccup was met with "I want to go back to Windows". It astonished me how much patience she had for Windows' daily WTFs, and yet so little patience for anything else. Within months the computer was running Windows again. I expect she'll kill that too...

Re: Termux and Android 10

#302

Post by AsyncAwait »

pjmlp wrote: post #300
AsyncAwait wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> provided you treat them as a Java based OS This topic is about Termux, an app that aims to provide a Linux environment on Android. I can treat it as a "Java-based OS", but then I don't get the benefits of real Linux so am not sure what the advantage is. My dumb phone was also "a Java based OS", iOS is just an "ObjC/Swift based OS" etc. The only thing this mindset does is to ignore the restrictions by giving into th…

Except Linux kernel on Android is heavily modified, nowadays it even has a microkernel like architecture thanks Project Treble and Modular System Components, where only ISO C, ISO C++ standard libraries and the Android Native APIs are guaranteed to exist across devices. Android 12 could be released with Windows, NuttX, BSD, Fuchsia kernel and hardly anyone that has kept using Java or NDK official APIs would hardly no…

> Android 12 could be released with Windows, NuttX, BSD, Fuchsia kernel and hardly anyone that has kept using Java or NDK official APIs would hardly notice other than OEMs.

Agreed. However this whole conversation concerns Termux, an app that made it possible to run some "desktop-grade" GNU/Linux tools on Android. This is despite the fact that the kernel itself is far from mainline, which however is rather unfortunate.

> GNU/Linux has lost its mobile OS/desktop opportunity.

People keep saying this, but depending on how you look at things, it both never had it and never lost it.

never had it.) because OEMs were only ever preinstalling PCs with Windows and thus Linux was always at a massive, massive disadvantage. Changing the OS is for the majority of users an unthinkable obstacle and am not even sure the majority of them are aware it is something that could be done.

Keeping the above it mind,

it never lost it.) because for the users that were willing/able to overcome the first obstacle, Linux was and remains a feasible desktop OS for at least 15 years. I know, I've been Linux-only everywhere for longer than that. It's never going to be #1 on the desktop, but it doesn't need to be. If we were to measure everything that way, all music genres besides Pop and Hip-Hop are basically useless because they never reach the top of radio music charts.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#303

Post by AsyncAwait »

Dylan16807 wrote: post #292
AsyncAwait wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's important to point out that you'll always rely on proprietary blobs and generally hostile hardware that way. For now it's a config. As these things progress and get more locked down with each release in the name of security, it's going to be harder and harder and I don't want to scramble the moment it is practically impossible. I'd rather push for a free, open, libre hardware now so that the polish is th…

> As these things progress and get more locked down with each release in the name of security If that actually happens. I haven't seen any downward trend of LineageOS. I haven't seen any downward trend of Samsung hardware.

I have certainly seen a much longer lag between a phone release that is not a Pixel and it being rootable+able to run Lineage compared to the Cyanogen days.

I've also noticed that nowdays, few phones are able to run more than one newer major Android version ahead because the OEM will simply not release the firmware needed to run newer versions and Lineage doesn't have the capacity to update/release their own firmware rebased against the latest Android, (I am talking about things such as the radio firmware, OnePlus is a famous example I know of).

Re: Termux and Android 10

#304

Post by mmsimanga »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #107
mmsimanga wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My intention was not to create impression that Linux is the problem. I myself have had similar experiences as you have had and use Ubuntu on all my PCs. However the reality is schools teach on Windows and just about all PCs and laptops sold in my home country have Windows installed. Apple products very rare and for the very rich. What this means is the average "computer guy" available to help my dad is typically a Wi…

These days the only application that is important for a non-computer folks is the browser, and Ubuntu can run Firefox just fine, it's easy to launch and turn off. In my experience, the perception that Linux is somehow 'hard' is just not true, deeply rooted in 2002 or something. Things have changed so much, and whatever kids are taught in school is not that big of a problem anymore.

You quite right, if you only browse the Internet then using Firefox will suffice. Problems tend to start when you editing documents and sharing them with people on Windows computers. Yes I know LibreOffice can edit MS Office documents but the inconsistencies in formatting tend to add up especially for novice users.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#305

Post by pjmlp »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #302
pjmlp wrote: post #300

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except Linux kernel on Android is heavily modified, nowadays it even has a microkernel like architecture thanks Project Treble and Modular System Components, where only ISO C, ISO C++ standard libraries and the Android Native APIs are guaranteed to exist across devices. Android 12 could be released with Windows, NuttX, BSD, Fuchsia kernel and hardly anyone that has kept using Java or NDK official APIs would hardly no…

> Android 12 could be released with Windows, NuttX, BSD, Fuchsia kernel and hardly anyone that has kept using Java or NDK official APIs would hardly notice other than OEMs. Agreed. However this whole conversation concerns Termux, an app that made it possible to run some "desktop-grade" GNU/Linux tools on Android. This is despite the fact that the kernel itself is far from mainline, which however is rather unfortunate…

Well, mainstream music is usually timeless, while less known genres just fade away when the generation that brought them up is gone.

GNU/Linux had its opportunity with OpenMoko, Maemo, netbooks, Steam machines.

Termux can provide a similar experience via Java/Kotlin, ISO C and ISO C++ implementations instead of relying in Linux specific calls.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#306

Post by zhte415 »

michaelmrose wrote: post #227
pmontra wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Basically I'm using Firefox, K9 for email, WhatsApp and Telegram to chat with friends, OSMAnd to plan and record bicycle tracks. Phone and camera. Plus mandatory banking apps or I won't be able to do home banking. If I buy a Linux phone I'd have to keep using my Android phone probably as my primary device. And I've been using Ubuntu laptops as my only working devices since 2009 so I'd love to use an Ubuntu phone. Unf…

Does your bank have a web interface?

A lot of 'challenger banks' do not have a web interface, they're app only.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#307

Post by AsyncAwait »

pjmlp wrote: post #305
AsyncAwait wrote: post #302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Android 12 could be released with Windows, NuttX, BSD, Fuchsia kernel and hardly anyone that has kept using Java or NDK official APIs would hardly notice other than OEMs. Agreed. However this whole conversation concerns Termux, an app that made it possible to run some "desktop-grade" GNU/Linux tools on Android. This is despite the fact that the kernel itself is far from mainline, which however is rather unfortunate…

Well, mainstream music is usually timeless, while less known genres just fade away when the generation that brought them up is gone. GNU/Linux had its opportunity with OpenMoko, Maemo, netbooks, Steam machines. Termux can provide a similar experience via Java/Kotlin, ISO C and ISO C++ implementations instead of relying in Linux specific calls.

> Well, mainstream music is usually timeless, while less known genres just fade away when the generation that brought them up is gone.

Hardly true. It's just they don't have the massive marketing machine of radio mainstream behind them, so they tend to have their dedicated fanbase and that's that.

> GNU/Linux had its opportunity with OpenMoko, Maemo, netbooks, Steam machines.

> OpenMoko & Maemo were fine Linux phones and many still swear by them to this day, but you seem to discount the power of marketing. Is not that your casual users knew about Maemo and just didn't like it. They don't even know it exists. Technical merit only gets you so far.

Also, given the above, there's nothing that is different about the current situation that is preventing the PinePhone/Librem 5 to claim that niche. I don't know why you have a hard cutoff for the opportunity there as being 'missed' and now nothing can be done.

> Termux can provide a similar experience via Java/Kotlin, ISO C and ISO C++ implementations instead of relying in Linux specific calls.

That's a metric ton of more work than I imagine the team has time for. Termux can do a lot of things. but with a hostile upstream venodor it's going to take a lot more effort than it would take to switch to a Linux phone for a better experience, at least in this regard.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#308

Post by dTal »

biggestdecision wrote: post #220

I mean it's sad that this change will affect Termux, but at the same time I can see why Google wants to enforce W^X on apps home dirs. This is currently a big backdoor for apps to sneak unvetted code in at runtime, bypasses Google's review policy. Sure Termux was using this for good, but I guarantee that Google has examples of apps doing this to sneak hostile code onto user devices. Development tools often need highe…

If they were actually vetting the code, they could tell that an application contained a suspicious "download and execute".

In actual fact the Play Store is full of perfectly "vetted" malware, as it stands. What this actually does is prevent the user from coding on the device.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#309

Post by pjmlp »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #307
pjmlp wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, mainstream music is usually timeless, while less known genres just fade away when the generation that brought them up is gone. GNU/Linux had its opportunity with OpenMoko, Maemo, netbooks, Steam machines. Termux can provide a similar experience via Java/Kotlin, ISO C and ISO C++ implementations instead of relying in Linux specific calls.

> Well, mainstream music is usually timeless, while less known genres just fade away when the generation that brought them up is gone. Hardly true. It's just they don't have the massive marketing machine of radio mainstream behind them, so they tend to have their dedicated fanbase and that's that. > GNU/Linux had its opportunity with OpenMoko, Maemo, netbooks, Steam machines. > OpenMoko & Maemo were fine Linux phones…

> I don't know why you have a hard cutoff for the opportunity there as being 'missed' and now nothing can be done.

I guess, because after all these years GPL seems to have lost steam, with GCC and the Linux kernel being the only GPL relevant pieces that are still around.

With efforts like Fuchsia, ARM mbed, Linux Foundation's own Zephyr OS, Amazon's RTOS, BSD adoption as basis for game console's OSes showing the direction where this will be going.

So most efforts to have a pure GNU/Linux device are bound to not survive long enough to keep a sustainable business.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#310

Post by m-p-3 »

zozbot234 wrote: post #172
agluszak wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now apps on Google Play are required to target at least API level 28. This will most probably be raised to level 29 in the near future, essentially blocking distribution of Termux, at least in its current form.

You will always be able to download Termux from outside Play. I actually have no idea how Termux could even work within Play policy seeing as it's essentially a 3rd-party repo not unlike F-Droid. You wouldn't expect to find F-Droid on the Play store, surely? You have to sideload it, and then it just works.

This will cut the developers out of a revenue stream though, as they provide optional Termux add-ons for a fee on the Play Store to support their development.

I donated, but I'm obviously part of a minority of users.

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