The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days • Hacker News Board

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#311

Post by guzey » Tue, May 19, 2020, 9:13 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #304

This is one of those posts I wish I could downvote 1000 times. It's the brogrammer equivalent of fake news: 22-yo kid "makes science" with a sample of 1, some videogames, and a few charts. You are 22 year old. Your body is at peak condition, built to go out and hunt for days on little food and little sleep. Of course it will work more or less fine for a few weeks.

I'm the author of this study.

>It's the brogrammer equivalent of fake news: 22-yo kid "makes science" with a sample of 1, some videogames, and a few charts.

>You are 22 year old. Your body is at peak condition, built to go out and hunt for days on little food and little sleep. Of course it will work more or less fine for a few weeks.

I like this comment because its author can't decide whether my study is the "equivalent of fake news" or whether its results are obviously true.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#312

Post by cthor » Tue, May 19, 2020, 9:57 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #304

This is one of those posts I wish I could downvote 1000 times. It's the brogrammer equivalent of fake news: 22-yo kid "makes science" with a sample of 1, some videogames, and a few charts. You are 22 year old. Your body is at peak condition, built to go out and hunt for days on little food and little sleep. Of course it will work more or less fine for a few weeks.

All the limitations you mention are already explicit in the text.

You have any other studies demonstrating lack of cognitive decline in 22 year olds on 4 hours sleep? Otherwise, you're just poo pooing on someone having actually having done the damn experiment. Yeah, n=1, but it's better than your n=0.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#313

Post by mjburgess » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:02 AM UTC

crooked-v wrote: post #298

hashmal wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation report that subjects do not feel their cognitive abilities decline. However, measuring cognition using objective tests does show a significant decrease in these abilities.

I discovered this for myself when I realized that while on 4 hours of sleep, I could power through stuff with the aid of enough caffeine and feel at least marginally productive... ...but I started leaving typos in everything. That really doesn't sound like much, right? Honestly, though, it genuinely freaked me out a little, existentially, the first time I noticed. I was one of those nerds who got to a state spelling…

I've had a similar experience with artificially masking my energy levels.

I stop reading what I've written and introducing a large number of typos; the grammar becomes weird; etc.

This is why it's important to allow yourself to be exhausted and to notice exhaustion: your little mental model of yourself is incredibly inaccurate. You need to be constantly alert to keep it updated, and if you don't, you will collapse.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#314

Post by mjburgess » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:06 AM UTC

jkhdigital wrote: post #123

oh-4-fucks-sake wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think that's what other recent psychological/neurological research has found too (citation needed--but do remember reading about it recently from multiple sources). It figures that everyone each has their individual baseline "propensity to stay focused"--and sleep deprivation degrades someone's focus below that. You take a normal person and sleep deprive them, and their "propensity to stay focused" is lowered, but…

> Ergo, ADHD might have a large sleep component. Yeah, I can count on one hand the number of times in my life when I woke up in the morning, even after a good night of sleep, and felt "refreshed". I didn't even know what that meant until I had a conversation with a coworker who just hops out of bed and is "on" immediately. Feels like there is a connection with my ADHD diagnosis.

A fitbit has been lifechanging for me on that front. Get one, and ruthelessly focus on improving your sleep.

I have three layers of blinds (get portable blackout blinds); I use earplugs; I try to keep the room temp low.

My mood, ability to think clearly, happiness etc. is very sensitive to my moving-average quality of sleep.

I think a week or two of "fair" (fitbits levels) sleep is a catastrophe for me -- I need a high average.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#315

Post by globular-toast » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:07 AM UTC

toyg wrote: post #304

This is one of those posts I wish I could downvote 1000 times. It's the brogrammer equivalent of fake news: 22-yo kid "makes science" with a sample of 1, some videogames, and a few charts. You are 22 year old. Your body is at peak condition, built to go out and hunt for days on little food and little sleep. Of course it will work more or less fine for a few weeks.

It's not meant to be science. It's a geek experimenting with his body. Hacking your sleeping patterns is a classic that all geeks do at some point in their journey.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#316

Post by WrtCdEvrydy » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:16 AM UTC

toxik wrote: post #292

wayoutthere wrote: post #185

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the other part to remember is that the author of the article is 22. I didn't need sleep either when I was his age. I don't mean he's naive, just that a 22-year-old can abuse their body without too many negative consequences. As someone in my late 30s, I definitely feel it when I only get 4 hours of sleep.

I don't know what type of drugs you guys were eating in your 20's but if I pulled an all-nighter, I was absolutely ruined the next day and a bit the day after that. Even in my teens.

To be honest in my early 20s, I'd do no sleep the entire finals week just cramming for shit... then take a three day nap.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#317

Post by jotm » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:21 AM UTC

koheripbal wrote: post #94

jotm wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I used to really like that guy... But I got a suspicion that sleep experiment may have been fabricated. There is zero proof beyond the blog posts :/

Seems lot a lot of effort for seemingly no return at the time. Without evidence to the contrary, I'm unwilling to doubt him.

You're right, there doesn't seem to be much payoff for lying on that particular topic, especially at that time. Just my suspicion, nothing more.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#318

Post by globular-toast » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:44 AM UTC

Like many a geek I've "experimented" with my sleeping patterns both intentionally and unintentionally. I used to drift out of sync with my own time zone until I was completely nocturnal and would regularly change phase by staying awake for more than 24 hours. I found this quite hard and while my cognitive ability might not have suffered, I found that I could think about nothing but sleep past the 24 hour mark. At the 16-20 hour mark I've done some of my best ever work.

Going several days with little sleep has always been easier. A single short night of only 3 hours is almost unnoticed. A second short night becomes difficult. But I've also noticed my cognitive ability isn't really impacted. However, my physical performance is degraded heavily. I'm far weaker, clumsier and my fine motor control is completely shot. I also become really irritable and just generally not pleasant to be around.

Nowadays I maintain a regular circadian rhythm. I get up at the same time every day, even on weekends. I try to go to sleep at the right time, but do sometimes get carried away with something I'm doing. But more importantly, I try to make sure my sleep quality is high. That means the room at the correct temperature (as far as I can manage), minimal light and noise pollution (I moved house specifically for this), and no drugs (it's one reason I stopped using alcohol). I find that everything is better. I'm stronger, have better endurance, I'm funnier and more sociable, sex is better, my work is better. Everything is better.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#319

Post by loa_in_ » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:49 AM UTC

renjimen wrote: post #114

abtom wrote: post #85

> I slept 4 hours a night for 14 days and didn’t find any effects on cognition (assessed via Psychomotor Vigilance Task, a custom first-person shooter scenario, and SAT). Remember kids, the only difference between screwing around and science is writing it down.

So all my late nights playing video games as a teenager could've been justified had I only phrased it as "doing a PVT for cognitive studies"?!

You would have to systematically write the circumstances and resulting observations down

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#320

Post by globular-toast » Tue, May 19, 2020, 10:53 AM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #132

ping_pong wrote: post #129

I discovered that about 1/3 of people can be sleep deprived without any ill effects, which is the bucket I fall in. Another 1/3 will be disgruntled but can function at a lower level, but for the last 1/3, it's catastrophic and can't function at all. That's my wife, and what exemplified this the most was after having kids. She was almost immediately a wreck but I was able to hold together with the lack of sleep and sp…

Almost exactly the same experience here with me Vs my wife with children. She needs at least one or two significant maps and an early bedtime or she simply just cannot function, but I seem to be able to handle it a bit better. I wonder if it is a gender thing, or a coincidence?

I have read studies that say men benefit more from micro-napping and therefore can handle shorter nights as long as they can micro-nap. I sleep significantly shorter nights than my girlfriend. She can sleep for 10-12 hours every night. I only sleep for 7-8 which means I go to sleep 2-3 hours after her. But I do micro-nap sometimes. If she naps it's for a long time, usually because of lack of sleep the night before. She is younger than me, and when I was younger I used to want to sleep for 10 hours or more, but when I did it messed up my sleeping pattern (gave me a >24 hour rhythm). So I'm inclined to think she really does need more sleep at night than me.