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My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

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Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#41
post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though.

There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent.

Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been crossed.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#42

It's true. I don't know how many times I've watched eager hackers get lambasted for "reinventing the wheel," or "don't bother doing it yourself, you'll just screw it up -- someone has probably done it already and did it better than you could." This happens most often at the intersection of technology and entrepreneurship. The business advice is that it's cheaper to buy it than build it. The engineer's perspective is…

You're right. Sometimes.

A hacker writing a quickie web server for the experience of doing so is laudable. This applies to lots of types of projects: toy OSes, social networking protocols, web frameworks, what have you. Exploration is fun, and key to the hacker spirit.

The difficulty comes from knowing the limitations of your skills. I got my web programming chops by reading a bunch of PHP tutorials back in 1998 and throwing together some dummy pages that could read/write to a mysql database. Not long after I built a website for a good friend's business that was riddled with SQL injection and XSS holes. Luckily, we never got exploited, and years later on a rainy Sunday night I revisited the code and patched it up. Had we been hit, I don't know how badly that would have affected the company.

The same goes for home-grown crypto: sure, you might be able to apply a function you wrote and get something that looks like cyphertext, and maybe it's a fun project to learn about crypto. But when you don't know any better, you think you've done it right and you might unintentionally swindle some folks into paying for completely insecure crypto.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#43
post #38
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, however the criticism the author is complaining about it not any criticism at all, it's about the low order, non substantive, non-topical type. Spolsky or PG wrote up a piece on this a bit back.

>Spolsky or PG wrote up a piece on this a bit back. I'd love to see it if you can remember the title...

Found it: http://www.paulgraham.com/disagree.html

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#44
What would we think of an American who walked into an Egyptian coffeehouse or a Japanese board room and interpreted all the behavior he saw there as if he were seeing it in a church in Iowa? It's fine to demand that geeks develop some social sophistication, but it's also fine to expect that non-geeks will have enough social sophistication not to rush to judgment about behavior in an unfamiliar cultural context. Cultures vary from place to place, subgroup to subgroup, and there's no reason people shouldn't adapt to us if they want to join our subculture. That's the way it works.

As other people have pointed out, the argumentative, ruthless nature of computing culture has very adaptive aspects because it mirrors the persistent, ruthless, and logical nature of the computers we deal with. Once you're used to dealing with computers -- once you've learned that computers don't compromise, but it isn't personal -- you perceive computer geek behavior differently. The only reason to enter the subculture, except as a tourist, is to learn about computing, so it is reasonable to assume that anybody arguing about how to program a microcontroller either gets us or is in the process of getting us.

Obviously, different rules apply when geeks interact with non-geeks in other contexts. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. When in Xerox PARC, or less exalted forums for discussing computing, do as the computer geeks do.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#45
The worst part is the practice of deliberately trying to make someone feel bad about themselves over a discussion about iPods or something. What sort of person does that? Thankfully I hardly ever see it on HN, but elsewhere it's rife.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#46
post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Each of the `Excellent xxx' response you give differs in two important hitches from the `Insecure xxx':

1) it requires much common context, understanding, experience.

Everybody will understand a ``this sucks'' response, regardless of the reasoning behind it being clear.

Understanding a, and building better solution on, an involved response requires common understanding, common experience, between the parties of communication. (What the heck is a 4/2 split? I dunno, honestly; this response only serves as a distraction to me at that very moment).

Lacking common experience is a communication barrier hard to climb, thus frustrating. It may be that very precise subjects (like computer science) provide for more such barriers, thus more frustration.

2) the ``This sucks'' response lets you vent anger. Now there are two conflicting theories about controlling strong emotions... ;-)

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#47

It's a little more advantageous to firmly establish your current language/style/concept as the standard than it is in skateboarding. The job market is all about hype. If RoR is the latest trend, a RoR programmer is better off. Same with Node.js. Same with HTML5 over flash. While I doubt people actually think "I'm going to tell you that your choice of language sucks because I want more work" I also doubt bullies on th…

I was just under the impression the python community has a long tradition of getting things done while being far from experts in the language, i.e., a far greater proportion of non-professional programmers who just use python to make one part of their real job go smoother.

This leads to a very high tolerance of people new to the language, and to misunderstandings.

Ruby and perl seem to have more typical professional programmer types is all.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#48
post #36

Condescending feedback says more about the speaker than the listener. It is almost invariably about their own insecurity. This is true is almost all fields of endeavor, not just programming. Just a few examples of my own: Insecure bridge player: The queen of spades was a stupid play. What's wrong with you? Excellent bridge player: The queen of spades would have been a great play against a 4/2 split. But since you had…

Vociferous opposition is not the same as condescension, though. There are some people who care deeply about a subject and just lack social tact. They'll jump on you for a variety of subjects, but they don't have ill intent. Then there are the people who are dicks and want to crush people who they disagree with. It's the point at which one starts displaying schadenfreude and denigrating others that the line has been c…

People who lack social tact need to be taught it. They aren't stupid, generally, they can be taught, if it's made clear that they must.

Treating people badly is a great way to drive out those who don't have the ability to deal with flamewars and shoutiness. And many of those people have a lot to contribute.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#49
i started learning to code in December/January. I've been pleasantly surprised by how helpful I've found people to be in places like #rubyonrails, #jquery, ...

I come across a random jerk here or there, or just some snarky, passive-aggressive commentary from time to time from otherwise OK people. I find if I am nice, humble, and honest about my abilities/intentions, people are generally nice in response.

Sarcasm has proven to be pretty successful on the web, which doesn't help your cause. How many successful blogs were built on a glib and critical tone? Being a jackass is an easy way to differentiate...I think this influences the general discourse on the web, especially among the savvy. That said, from what I remember, "web people" were far more ruthless 15 years ago.

Re: My fellow geeks, we need to have a talk.

#50
post #15

There is a major difference between sports and programming: In sports, everyone is a critic, and it is really obvious if people cannot skateboard, or cannot throw a basketball. Compare with programming, where overt effect and actual competence are not always related. Criticizing programming and programmers is nontrivial, and hence people have to do it all the time to build up a shared understanding of good and bad pr…

Except there is much more to a sport than, for example, shooting a basketball. There's offense, there's defense. There's fundamental skills, there's game strategy, there's different sorts of matchups. It goes on and on to subtler and more intricate detail. It's not simply whether one can skateboard or not, program or not, and it would seem that is what the author of the article was getting at.

In your visual arts examples, there is a much simpler explanation. The reason there are more pages devoted toward layout principles is because the medium of expression (i.e. the web) fundamentally uses layout principles. Drawing doesn't express using the web. It's a selection effect, just as it's more likely that you will find soccer players in Brazil, and hockey players in Canada, rather than the other way around.

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