The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days • Hacker News Board

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#261

Post by oliveshell » Tue, May 19, 2020, 3:57 AM UTC

meddlepal wrote: post #257

burlesona wrote: post #254

I have come to the (non-scientific) conclusion that this is probably genetic. I know some people who sleep a lot less than me and seem to be fine with that. I am not fine with less sleep, but I wish I was because I would love to have the extra hours each day. I thought of this for the first time when listening to a Freakonomics podcast series interviewing major company CEOs. Several of them mentioned schedules where…

I think it's more likely some people can just power through lack of sleep. I've recently started trying to sleep more 6-7+ hours after a decade of doing the 3-5 hours thing. I just feel better now with more sleep and while I certainly could perform at a high level with less sleep I had to exert more energy the longer the day went on to stay focused. Genetic? Maybe, or just really good discipline and work ethic?

Well, yes, but this is a bit of a false dichotomy.

It’s obvious that capacity for discipline and work ethic are not entirely independent of genetic factors.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#262

Post by guzey » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:03 AM UTC

rdgthree wrote: post #260

spacephysics wrote: post #56

Since a few years ago (when I read Why We Sleep [0]) I’ve made it my priority above all else to allow myself 8 hours of sleep, even if I don’t ‘use’ all of it. With more sleep, an innumerable amount of things are better (as read in the book), but subjectively I noticed the following after about a month straight of good sleep: * Pain was far more manageable (IBS, MMA injuries) * Sleep was more restorative when I woke…

I would imagine the group of people who immediately accepted everything this book claimed as fact and went on to immediately adjust their lifestyles to match may have a strong correlation with the group of people who are more susceptible to the placebo effect. I didn't make it through the first chapter before I started looking into the accuracy of the claims he was making. Some of them were clearly bananas.

>I would imagine the group of people who immediately accepted everything this book claimed as fact and went on to immediately adjust their lifestyles to match may have a strong correlation with the group of people who are more susceptible to the placebo effect.

This is a very interesting point.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#263

Post by Zenbit_UX » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:06 AM UTC

guzey wrote: post #262

rdgthree wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would imagine the group of people who immediately accepted everything this book claimed as fact and went on to immediately adjust their lifestyles to match may have a strong correlation with the group of people who are more susceptible to the placebo effect. I didn't make it through the first chapter before I started looking into the accuracy of the claims he was making. Some of them were clearly bananas.

>I would imagine the group of people who immediately accepted everything this book claimed as fact and went on to immediately adjust their lifestyles to match may have a strong correlation with the group of people who are more susceptible to the placebo effect. This is a very interesting point.

Guzey of guzey_arena fame?

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#264

Post by Zenbit_UX » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

jkhdigital wrote: post #128

> It seems that there’s very high variation in how people respond to sleep deprivation. There you go. It's the tyranny of averages: when variation between humans is greater than the effect of the intervention. This reminds me of reading The How of Happiness and learning that happiness is basically 50% genetics, 10% circumstances and 40% behavior. The author frames that 40% as a really big number, but I thought about…

I ain't no fancy pants happiness author but I'd posit that happiness is 70% stupidity and 30% circumstance.

You can be poor and happy or rich and happy, but the smarter you are the less likely either of those are true. Though being rich certainly helps.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#265

Post by Zenbit_UX » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:16 AM UTC

pureliquidhw wrote: post #41

klodolph wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’d say that the idea that we can recover wasted time sleeping is predicated on the idea that sleep is not a useful thing to do with our time. I think the current consensus is that there is actually many different things that our bodies and minds do while sleeping, so you couldn’t isolate one benefit of sleep and replicate it, you’d have to replicate five or ten different benefits of sleep, or more. If you want to re…

+1 to a maid. You can get someone to clean, do laundry, and possibly cook 2x a week for less than $10k ($200 week * 50 weeks) a year in a mid-sized metro. Possibly even cheaper. Any couple that bickers about cleaning at all should try a maid before a divorce or couples counseling.

-1 to having a stranger wander through your place and things while you're not at home. As a commenter on this site you should be well aware that any computer security precautions are forfeit when physical access is available.

Get a roomba.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#266

Post by rdgthree » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:17 AM UTC

mattlondon wrote: post #130

Having recently had a baby, 4 hours of presumably uninterrupted sleep per night is an absolutely amazing prospect! Luxury! What I noticed was it was not so much a lack of sleep, but how the sleep is interrupted that was the killer. After a few days of barely sleeping longer than 30 mins at a time I found that memory was hugely impacted, and even trivial mental arithmetic required concentration. I suspect this is to d…

I think this is the interesting question. I'm an extremely deep sleeper and almost nothing wakes me up while I'm sleeping, but I've found that I naturally sleep significantly longer if my bedroom has too much light or there's a significant amount of noise around me while I'm asleep. So despite not actually waking up consciously, I think I sometimes end up in this partial wake state where I'm not getting proper REM sleep and as a result, not actually getting the rest I need.

It wouldn't surprise me if this is often the case for people who feel they need more sleep. Having proper blackout shades and full silence (via ear plugs or otherwise) during sleep allows me to sleep a significantly shorter period of time as measured by however long I end up staying asleep. I typically don't use an alarm, so it's fascinating to be able to notice that natural difference in how long my body seems to need before booting back up.

Interesting anecdote - the pandemic is what triggered my awareness of this effect. When I'm at home alone sleeping (typically into the late morning, I'm a night owl), my dog will sleep with me. When my girlfriend started working from home from early in the morning, he would wake up with her and bark loudly at the occasional activity outside. I suddenly couldn't wake up on my normal schedule, even though I wasn't actually consciously woken up by the barking. The thought occurred to me that it could still be the barking and something related to the depth of the sleep, so I tried ear plugs + having my girlfriend close the bedroom door. Suddenly I was back to sleeping normal hours. Years of strange sleeping pattern problems were explained in an instant.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#267

Post by 1bc29b36f623ba8 » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:20 AM UTC

I sleep for 4-5 hours, get up for about an hour or so, and then try to sleep another 3-4 hours. Previously, I'd wake up after 4-5 hours and spend 2-3 hours trying to fall asleep again. An hour of activity during the night seem to be much more efficient as I get more sleep in total, and obviously feel rested afterwards.

Occasionally, I've stayed up, and while I've usually felt quite well for several hours without noticeable decreases in my cognitive abilities, I've been completely exhausted by lunchtime instead.

Perhaps it is an age thing?

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#268

Post by brewdad » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:21 AM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #259

taneq wrote: post #218

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes you are (well, it's ~1.5 pints for me). Just don't drink that 4th beer or it's all over. Edit: Don't just take my word for it. https://www.wired.com/2015/05/big-question-booze-help-play-b...

Lots of people here obviously also think this, but I maintain that they're wrong . Consider what the Wired article you linked actually says: > In a 1993 study, he found that hand-eye coordination deteriorated immediately after a player's first drink, but balance and accuracy improved at a BAC of 0.02 (beyond that, performance fell off). A BAC of 0.02 is like, I dunno, less than half a beer? (And even then the article…

.02 BAC is about a 12oz beer for the average male. Given that there is a lag between drinking that first beer and having the alcohol absorbed into the bloodstream, I find it entirely plausible that 1.5 pints in could correspond with a pool player's peak performance.

They've already consumed enough alcohol to move past the sweet spot but it isn't yet affecting their performance.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#269

Post by psychomugs » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

hombre_fatal wrote: post #196

dionidium wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: "I'm better at pool after 3 beers." Yeah, no you're not.

A few beers makes you better at anything hindered by anxiety. For many people, that's playing pool at the bar in front of others. Or speaking a foreign language. Or holding conversation.

Definitely relate to the foreign language part, especially when trying to speak casually after primarily learning from a structured classroom setting.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#270

Post by joshgachnang » Tue, May 19, 2020, 4:33 AM UTC

trebidor wrote: post #176

matwood wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can summarize what both the original author, and what the person wrote criticizing agree on. Yes, sleep is required. Get enough sleep that you feel rested. A lot of the critique was around the 8 hours, and the conclusions about what happens if you get less. Anecdotally, I never sleep 8+ hours. I also get up without an alarm clock every single day. I'm not going to stress that I normally sleep ~7 hours and feel rest…

One problem with this approach is that if you've always had dysfunctional sleep, you don't understand what "feeling rested" really means. I had undiagnosed sleep apnea until my late 20s, and it was insane what a difference getting a CPAP made. I literally couldn't conceptualize how fatigued I had been all of my life until I had something to compare it against, and when I finally started getting restorative sleep my w…

Yup, exactly this. It feels normal to you, because that's how it's always been and no matter what you do, you never actually get a good night's sleep. I dealt with severe obstructive sleep apnea from my late teens to my mid twenties. I have no idea how I was able to study and graduate college, looking back. I got a CPAP and later corrective surgery and it's completely changed my life. Think about how you feel when you get half your normal sleep. Looking back, that's how I felt every single day.