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The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

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Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#251

Post by ping_pong »

asdff wrote: post #198
ping_pong wrote: post #129

I discovered that about 1/3 of people can be sleep deprived without any ill effects, which is the bucket I fall in. Another 1/3 will be disgruntled but can function at a lower level, but for the last 1/3, it's catastrophic and can't function at all. That's my wife, and what exemplified this the most was after having kids. She was almost immediately a wreck but I was able to hold together with the lack of sleep and sp…

I think it depends on conditioning. I've always had to work nights while in high school and college, so I never really could get enough sleep during those years no matter how much joy and happiness I abstained from to make more time. As a result, I get by OK on 5 hours if behind the gun on a deadline, but even if I make time to sleep in I might only get 7 hours total.

No, it has nothing to do with conditioning. It's just how people are wired. Some people cannot handle lack of sleep, and it doesn't really show until they have prolonged sleep deprivation like when they have kids.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#252

Post by ping_pong »

mattlondon wrote: post #132
ping_pong wrote: post #129

I discovered that about 1/3 of people can be sleep deprived without any ill effects, which is the bucket I fall in. Another 1/3 will be disgruntled but can function at a lower level, but for the last 1/3, it's catastrophic and can't function at all. That's my wife, and what exemplified this the most was after having kids. She was almost immediately a wreck but I was able to hold together with the lack of sleep and sp…

Almost exactly the same experience here with me Vs my wife with children. She needs at least one or two significant maps and an early bedtime or she simply just cannot function, but I seem to be able to handle it a bit better. I wonder if it is a gender thing, or a coincidence?

I don't think sex matters, it's simply how someone is wired.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#253

Post by fisherjeff »

wayoutthere wrote: post #185
hawkice wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is by far the most important thing for HN to learn about this. The default level of self deception on this front is enormous.

I think the other part to remember is that the author of the article is 22. I didn't need sleep either when I was his age. I don't mean he's naive, just that a 22-year-old can abuse their body without too many negative consequences. As someone in my late 30s, I definitely feel it when I only get 4 hours of sleep.

YES. Becoming a parent in my mid-30s taught me many things, including just how much more energy I had in my 20s

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#254

Post by burlesona »

I have come to the (non-scientific) conclusion that this is probably genetic. I know some people who sleep a lot less than me and seem to be fine with that. I am not fine with less sleep, but I wish I was because I would love to have the extra hours each day.

I thought of this for the first time when listening to a Freakonomics podcast series interviewing major company CEOs. Several of them mentioned schedules where they average 3-5 hours sleep per night, forever. They all seemed to think that was fine.

I think I would be severely ill, maybe even literally die, if I averaged 3-5 hours sleep for a duration of many months.

When listening to that series it hit me, maybe this is a genetic thing. In the same way that you kind of need to be tall to make it into the NBA, maybe you need the "minimal sleep is okay" gene to make it as a CEO or rocketship founder. People with those genes get anywhere from 10-20 hours more time per work week than I do, and that's a big advantage over one week, let alone compounded over a career.

I don't know what the research says about this, but my lived experience makes me think it's pretty likely, and unfortunately that also means I may have to be more realistic about what my body is and is not capable of.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#255

Post by cercatrova »

burlesona wrote: post #254

I have come to the (non-scientific) conclusion that this is probably genetic. I know some people who sleep a lot less than me and seem to be fine with that. I am not fine with less sleep, but I wish I was because I would love to have the extra hours each day. I thought of this for the first time when listening to a Freakonomics podcast series interviewing major company CEOs. Several of them mentioned schedules where…

Yes, genetic factors are possible. For example, last year a new gene interaction was discovered for people who need less sleep: https://www.nih.gov/news-events/nih-research-matters/gene-id...

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#256

Post by rdgthree »

guzey wrote: post #228
collyw wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I dont know any off hand but Mathew Walkers book "Why we sleep" talks about them. Apparently there are more road traffic accidents the day after the clocks change in spring when many people loose an hours sleep.

https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/

Immensely frustrating how many people are citing his book in a thread about one of your own blog posts, of all places. I was so glad to see your post about it at the time, and this experiment is an interesting follow up.

"Why We Sleep" is everything wrong with "science" today, and as a person who also isn't a huge fan of sleeping, I'm desperate to understand the real drawbacks to a lack of sleep. That dumpster fire of a book has set back honest research on the subject by years.

Just venting, as I know you agree. Thanks again for your contributions to sanity.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#257

Post by meddlepal »

burlesona wrote: post #254

I have come to the (non-scientific) conclusion that this is probably genetic. I know some people who sleep a lot less than me and seem to be fine with that. I am not fine with less sleep, but I wish I was because I would love to have the extra hours each day. I thought of this for the first time when listening to a Freakonomics podcast series interviewing major company CEOs. Several of them mentioned schedules where…

I think it's more likely some people can just power through lack of sleep. I've recently started trying to sleep more 6-7+ hours after a decade of doing the 3-5 hours thing.

I just feel better now with more sleep and while I certainly could perform at a high level with less sleep I had to exert more energy the longer the day went on to stay focused.

Genetic? Maybe, or just really good discipline and work ethic?

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#258

Post by jl2718 »

My first tour in Afghanistan I started at 3 hours and couldn’t keep that up after a month or two so I went to four hours for most of the year. It was crazy but very structured and focused so it worked. I couldn’t do this in the civilian world; it’s too complicated to deal with relationships and looking after yourself and big life decisions and existential questions and everything else. Exhausting. I’ll take 10 if I can get it. I go back to this schedule when camping and feel great.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#259

Post by dionidium »

taneq wrote: post #218
dionidium wrote: post #144

Earlier quoted context omitted.

See also: "I'm better at pool after 3 beers." Yeah, no you're not.

Yes you are (well, it's ~1.5 pints for me). Just don't drink that 4th beer or it's all over. Edit: Don't just take my word for it. https://www.wired.com/2015/05/big-question-booze-help-play-b...

Lots of people here obviously also think this, but I maintain that they're wrong. Consider what the Wired article you linked actually says:

> In a 1993 study, he found that hand-eye coordination deteriorated immediately after a player's first drink, but balance and accuracy improved at a BAC of 0.02 (beyond that, performance fell off).

A BAC of 0.02 is like, I dunno, less than half a beer? (And even then the article suggests a mixed bag.) I have no trouble believing that very small doses of alcohol could relax the imbiber in a way that's useful. But I suspect most of the people here who think I'm wrong are referring to larger doses not measured in fractions-of-a-single-beer.

And, again, I very much doubt it.

Your ability to do almost anything falls off beyond the 0.02 point mentioned in the article. What's actually on display here is that people are very bad at evaluating how alcohol affects them. None of the claims here would survive unbiased testing.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#260

Post by rdgthree »

spacephysics wrote: post #56

Since a few years ago (when I read Why We Sleep [0]) I’ve made it my priority above all else to allow myself 8 hours of sleep, even if I don’t ‘use’ all of it. With more sleep, an innumerable amount of things are better (as read in the book), but subjectively I noticed the following after about a month straight of good sleep: * Pain was far more manageable (IBS, MMA injuries) * Sleep was more restorative when I woke…

I would imagine the group of people who immediately accepted everything this book claimed as fact and went on to immediately adjust their lifestyles to match may have a strong correlation with the group of people who are more susceptible to the placebo effect.

I didn't make it through the first chapter before I started looking into the accuracy of the claims he was making. Some of them were clearly bananas.

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