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The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

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Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#161

Post by 0xddd »

texascloud wrote: post #152
0xddd wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except there are cases where Walker went so far as to remove portions of a graph to support his argument. This kind of manipulation shouldn't be allowed to stand and it's frustrating (though not surprising) to see a book that relies on this sort of dishonesty get so much uncritical attention and praise. I can't put it any better than Andrew Gelman: "If the data didn’t matter, then why did you include them in your dam…

Okay, he removed the 5 hour bar. I get what the author in your link is upset about, leaving out data points. But imo that's not good enough to make me throw out all the information in that book. It sounds like the author is upset a book about getting enough sleep is getting so much attention. If they're upset at the way Walker misrepresents information, then I'd hate to see the author's blood pressure while feverishl…

I'm genuinely surprised someone could read that whole blog post (I'm assuming here) and come away with that conclusion. Gelman addresses this so directly in the article:

"Recall the Javert paradox. It’s completely reasonable to write about scientific misconduct, and yes sometimes we have to scream a bit to get heard over all the chatter of the scientist-as-hero press." ... "But we need real expertise, not fake expertise. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Gresham, baby, Gresham. If we don’t contest the fake expertise, I’m seriously worried it will be crowding out the real stuff."

There is good research and there is bad research. The latter should not be given a pass just because all research has some amount of bias.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#162

Post by serf »

hashmal wrote: post #66
snowwrestler wrote: post #31

When I go many days in a row without enough sleep, I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline--as judged by things I build and people I interact with. But, my endurance of focus (the amount of time for which I can perform at a high level) does suffer. The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don…

> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation report that subjects do not feel their cognitive abilities decline. However, measuring cognition using objective tests does show a significant decrease in these abilities.

Why did you leave out the end of their quote about the metrics they use to judge their perception upon?

"--as judged by things I build and people I interact with."

I mean, I agree that sleep deprivation seems to induce temporary cognitive performance problems, but you're reinforcing a point that the parent seems to already understand -- that self perception is useless without objective performance metrics.

Parent gave their opinion, reinforced by anecdotal evidence that they believe is an objective measure of their performance.

Perhaps what should really be mentioned is that perhaps the metrics by which they are judging their cognitive performance are not as broad a test of those characteristics as one might believe.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#163

Post by Jedd »

lemming wrote: post #117
vikiomega9 wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Could you point me to some of these studies, ie. one that's a good starting reference.

The definitive reference for all things sleep is “why we sleep” by Matthew Walker. It’s a fantastic read, highly recommended. It single handedly moved getting enough sleep from a similar category to “I should probably eat less salt” to “this is the single most important thing for my health” for me.

FWIW TFA's author is vehemently opposed to Matthew Walker's book.

(Disclaimer - I'm not. I found much of the content interesting and compelling.)

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#164

Post by testnew2 »

snowwrestler wrote: post #31

When I go many days in a row without enough sleep, I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline--as judged by things I build and people I interact with. But, my endurance of focus (the amount of time for which I can perform at a high level) does suffer. The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don…

I’ve been under sleeping and I play a lot of games. Poker, go, call of duty war zone. My performance in all of them suffers. I actually don’t allow myself to play poker anymore unless I have two nights of full rest.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#165

Post by otterpro »

If you are doing any sleep-deprivation experiment on self, only thing I ask of you is to not get behind the wheel and drive. I beg you please not to do any driving, even if you feel alert and not tired. I had a friend's teen who blacked out while driving after not sleeping much in 24 hours, causing a minor accident on the freeway. Falling asleep behind the wheel is most common, especially around 2-3pm, when the effect of sleep deprivation really starts to kick in, and brain decides to sleep without a warning.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#166

Post by 101404 »

dionidium wrote: post #144
hashmal wrote: post #66

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline It's very common. Studies on sleep deprivation report that subjects do not feel their cognitive abilities decline. However, measuring cognition using objective tests does show a significant decrease in these abilities.

See also: "I'm better at pool after 3 beers." Yeah, no you're not.

I suck at pool, and I know it.

After three beer, I still suck at pool, but I don't care.

So yeah, I play better.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#167

Post by james_s_tayler »

oh-4-fucks-sake wrote: post #65
snowwrestler wrote: post #31

When I go many days in a row without enough sleep, I find that my cognitive abilities (i.e. what I am capable of doing) does not seem to significantly decline--as judged by things I build and people I interact with. But, my endurance of focus (the amount of time for which I can perform at a high level) does suffer. The weird thing is that it doesn't feel like I can't keep going... it's just that I sort of somehow don…

I think that's what other recent psychological/neurological research has found too (citation needed--but do remember reading about it recently from multiple sources). It figures that everyone each has their individual baseline "propensity to stay focused"--and sleep deprivation degrades someone's focus below that. You take a normal person and sleep deprive them, and their "propensity to stay focused" is lowered, but…

>One theory that's gaining traction is that people with ADHD have a somewhat lower baseline than average, and when you throw in sleep deprivation, their "propensity to focus" falls into dysfunctional territory

Part of the criteria for diagnosis is that your symptoms are persistent and chronic enough such that your life is impaired. That's already squarely in dysfunctional territory without sleep problems.

Given ADHD affects all of your executive functions, it tends to impact all facets of your life. You're 400% more likely to be obese than someone who is non-ADHD. With that comes obstructive sleep apnea. With that comes less sleep and more problems.

So, ADHD has its own special way of making itself worse.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#168

Post by bosie »

Jedd wrote: post #163
lemming wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The definitive reference for all things sleep is “why we sleep” by Matthew Walker. It’s a fantastic read, highly recommended. It single handedly moved getting enough sleep from a similar category to “I should probably eat less salt” to “this is the single most important thing for my health” for me.

FWIW TFA's author is vehemently opposed to Matthew Walker's book. (Disclaimer - I'm not. I found much of the content interesting and compelling.)

Sorry, what is TFA?

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#169

Post by shaftway »

comboy wrote: post #127
shaftway wrote: post #118

I read about the Uberman sleep schedule stuff myself when I was younger and trying to recover time I "wasted" sleeping. I ended up trying Uberman myself (15 minute naps, 6x per day). I did a decent amount of prep work. I talked to my doctor (who basically said as long as I'm not falling asleep while driving, go for it). I set up ways to track my cognitive abilities around work (remote software engineer at the time).…

I did it too for a few months. Felt great just doesn't work with society at all. 3h+ blocks are useful, especially when you need to get somewhere in a bigger city. And missing a nap is like missing a night of sleep, except it's not that easy to catch up without screwing your schedule. I did not have problem not being able to focus on something for 3h (btw AFAIR it was 2.5h for me? with 24 mins sleep). Nap felt like a…

> I did not have problem not being able to focus on something for 3h (btw AFAIR it was 2.5h for me? with 24 mins sleep).

I didn't have problems focusing for 3 hours. But when I was amped about what I was working on, it was frustrating to have to pause for a nap.

I think I originally scheduled 30 minutes for each nap, but I found myself waking up right before my alarm would go off, and it got easier to fall asleep, so I ended up with 20 minutes scheduled, 15 minutes of sleep.

Re: The effects on cognition of sleeping 4 hours per night for 12-14 days

#170

Post by detaro »

bosie wrote: post #168
Jedd wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW TFA's author is vehemently opposed to Matthew Walker's book. (Disclaimer - I'm not. I found much of the content interesting and compelling.)

Sorry, what is TFA?

"The Fine Article" (other words beginning with F might be substituted) = the article/link discussed
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