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Termux and Android 10

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Re: Termux and Android 10

#171

Post by cft »

lucb1e wrote: post #168
agluszak wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Right now apps on Google Play are required to target at least API level 28. This will most probably be raised to level 29 in the near future, essentially blocking distribution of Termux, at least in its current form.

Wouldn't be the first app that runs into issues with Google's benevolent inclusion of their code in the Google store. I'm sure F-Droid will continue to deliver Termux, especially for the specific Termux audience.

At some point these restrictions to exec() will be enforced on the OS level, rather than on the API level.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#172

Post by zozbot234 »

agluszak wrote: post #162
geofft wrote: post #148

This title is misleading for a few reasons: - Android 10 is not killing anything. Targeting API level 29, the native API level of Android 10, prevents the mechanism Termux uses, but you can target a lower API level and run just fine on Android 10, and in fact Termux does run just fine on Android 10. - API level 29 blocks a specific mechanism that Termux happens to use to run arbitrary code. There are other ways to do…

Right now apps on Google Play are required to target at least API level 28. This will most probably be raised to level 29 in the near future, essentially blocking distribution of Termux, at least in its current form.

You will always be able to download Termux from outside Play. I actually have no idea how Termux could even work within Play policy seeing as it's essentially a 3rd-party repo not unlike F-Droid. You wouldn't expect to find F-Droid on the Play store, surely? You have to sideload it, and then it just works.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#173

Post by wlesieutre »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #100
Sebb767 wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But you pay 750$ for a 3GB quad core phone; I've got these specs on a 300€ OnePlus One five (six?) years ago. Sure, replaceable battery and open hardware are a _very_ good thing, but the value/$ of these phones are horrendous. That's not to defend OnePlus or any other manufacturer, but when I can get a high end Samsung or Xiaomi device with 4 times the specs at every corner for the same price or less and simply insta…

These phones are primarily about user-freedom, privacy and my ability to do whatever I want with a device that I've purchased, without restrictions imposed by the OEM. Also, honest question; What do you actually 'use' the latest specs for? These Android/iOS phones are basically all about media consumption, something that has been sufficiently performant for years. You have great hardware, but no software to take real…

> What do you actually 'use' the latest specs for?

Increasingly inefficient consumer software!

If everyone else were stuck on old hardware it might stop being a problem, but when you're lagging behind everyone else's hardware you're going to notice it.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#174

Post by zozbot234 »

cft wrote: post #166
geofft wrote: post #148

This title is misleading for a few reasons: - Android 10 is not killing anything. Targeting API level 29, the native API level of Android 10, prevents the mechanism Termux uses, but you can target a lower API level and run just fine on Android 10, and in fact Termux does run just fine on Android 10. - API level 29 blocks a specific mechanism that Termux happens to use to run arbitrary code. There are other ways to do…

It will be impossible to distribute the app targeting 28 in the near future. Targeting 29, the only replacement for apt get that they could come up with is to stuff Linux binaries into 100s of apps and upload those apps to the play store. I am not sure this is usable anymore. You might want to read this: https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072#issuecommen...

Impossible to distribute in Play. Will work fine as a plain .apk, or downloaded from e.g. F-Droid.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#175

Post by CoolGuySteve »

Andrew_nenakhov wrote: post #83
larrik wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who has been on Linux a long time, but still has to support family members using Windows, here's my perspective: 1) Linux is usually easier in the "happy case", where everything works as it should, and it supports everything that the user needs. 2) Linux is way way way less likely to just change something and break the whole system while the user is sleeping. (This was REAL fun with my grandparents-in-law…

> 9) The few times I've gotten family members to try Linux, they called me LESS often for support. Even on laptops! This is so true. All my family members are on Ubuntu, and it just works without any support. For many many years. Sometimes when I visit them I click on update to the next LTS. By the time I have to leave it is updated and runs again for 2 more years.

Where supporting Ubuntu falls over is when I try and support "power users".

There's like an uncanny valley of competence, between completely naive users who just let things run and experienced users who know where the red lines are when using sudo.

So far I've seen the following breakages:

- completely fuck up apt somehow such that it refuses to update or fix itself

- overwrite packages with their own compiled versions

- mess with the system installed scripting environments

- try and install a new kernel or graphics drivers (usually not even to get something working but because it's "new") and consequently break the boot somehow.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#177

Post by lucb1e »

zozbot234 wrote: post #38
KenoFischer wrote: post #37

What's the actual restriction? If it's literally just exec on apps outside the app directory, why not shim the dynamic linker and rewrite calls to exec to use that instead? Are there additional W^X protections that prevent mapping executables outside the app directory PROT_EXEC? (Note I have no idea how Android works so I may be missing something very basic).

Part of the problem is precisely that no one knows how these restrictions might evolve in the future. There's no such thing as forward compatibility when it comes to Android API levels.

Sure, but this is about API level 29, not 30+. We can speculate that API 30 will disallow non-Google-written code by default but that's not the discussion at hand.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#178

Post by zozbot234 »

ocdtrekkie wrote: post #153
djsumdog wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am a big fan of PostmarketOS, but that being said, you still need to patch the Mesa libraries to get hardware acceleration working on an old Nexus 7. They want to do a lot more work, but it's difficult with all these garbage/trash ARM devices out there. If Google gave a shit about e-waste, they'd mandate UEFI+ARM like Microsoft did with their phones (except without the locked bootloader). Trying to get drivers to l…

I am still surprised Google gets almost no flack for this. Chromebooks are particularly bad offenders. They're basically disposable laptops with an incredibly short lifecycle, where even browser security updates end when Google decides a laptop has left support. It's ironic Chrome is supported many years longer on any given Windows PC than any given Chromebook. Google loves claiming to be environmentally friendly, bu…

Not sure what's "bad" about Chromebooks, seeing as you can unlock them and install standard firmware. Then your only obstacle to using them as you would any other laptop is OEM hardware that's sometimes not supported by the mainline kernel, and a mildly non-standard keyboard. Android is a lot worse than that, many devices are not even OEM unlockable in the first place.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#179

Post by mav3rick »

ufmace wrote: post #11

I installed Termux on my Chromebook a few years ago to try and create a local development environment per this article[0]. It seemed to work okay, but I never liked how janky and unsupported the whole thing felt. I couldn't bring myself to try and build a workflow around it long-term. And here I guess that's vindicated. Whether now or in a few years, the whole concept of Termux is not long for this world. I guess the…

Chrome OS has a proper shell now (runs in a VM in the background). Give it a go.

Re: Termux and Android 10

#180

Post by cft »

zozbot234 wrote: post #174
cft wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It will be impossible to distribute the app targeting 28 in the near future. Targeting 29, the only replacement for apt get that they could come up with is to stuff Linux binaries into 100s of apps and upload those apps to the play store. I am not sure this is usable anymore. You might want to read this: https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072#issuecommen...

Impossible to distribute in Play. Will work fine as a plain .apk, or downloaded from e.g. F-Droid.

Note that they will eventually tighten SELinux policy to forbid exec() outside of userspace of the process

https://github.com/termux/termux-app/issues/1072#issuecommen...

So the app will not work on the OS level

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