Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

csmonitor.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 55 posts

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#31

Post by [deleted] »

danharaj wrote: post #26
jajag wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

Those poor capitalists and their empire just didn't have the means to let the filthy unwashed poor of Ireland eat. It was done out of economic necessity.

[deleted]

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#32

Post by jajag »

Robotbeat wrote: post #28
jajag wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

I’m fairly centrist, almost a self-described neoliberal, but what you’re describing sounds like a convoluted argument to rationalize systemic oppression. I guess in many ways that’s what systems of property law and capitalism are for: ways for us to feel better about rationalising anti-social behavior as being a moral necessity even when plenty physical resources exist... “gotta pay rent, gotta pay debt, it’s only ri…

It was an attempt to explain the economic structure that would allow food to be exported from a country during a famine, not necessarily to rationalize and certainly not to excuse. The fact of the matter is that these kind of economic structures were not unique to Ireland of the time, nor would they have been absent in Ireland under a native non-colonial government.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#33

Post by discreteevent »

jajag wrote: post #23
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

No, most of the landlords were of British descent. The rest were under control of the crown and the crown got their taxes. The upper classes, mainly British and some Irish systematically bled the vast majority of the people.

>As they would have seen it, stopping the export of food stuffs would have caused economic collapse.

They knew very well that it would have caused economic collapse only for the people in power who were at no risk of dying. And they knew very well what they could do to save the lives of people they saw starving all around them. To say they could do nothing because 'it's the system' is ridiculous. The people with power were the system. The people who starved had no real representation and that's they way it was designed by the people in power, namely the landlords and the government.

Even before the famine the reason a lot of the tenant farmers emigrated was because if they managed to be in any way extra productive and make some profit for themselves it was immediately taken from them in the form of some tax (see for example the 'window' tax). This was systematic and the people in power were responsible.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#34

Post by discreteevent »

jajag wrote: post #30
paublyrne wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's a simplification to blame the famine on 'British oppression', but to say `governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government` is something of a strawman. There were a number of interventions accessible by the government. As parent points out there was ideological resistance to employing them, and where employed they were done so weakly and without enthus…

I didn't say that the British government had no scope of action, but that it was limited compare to what a modern government could do. That this was further compounded by the attitudes and beliefs of members of the government of the time there's no doubt. But to be explicit about this, I believe that had there been an independent Irish state at the time, it would have continued to export food because not to do so wou…

Have you studied the actions of the Irish government in the decades after independence? The "economic war" with Britain caused economic collapse of it's 'merchant class' and it was undertaken to directly support tenant farmers.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#35

Post by pjc50 »

Cthulhu_ wrote: post #19
pjc50 wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Extraordinary thing to happen at the time of Band Aid and the big donations from the UK to Ethiopia following the first disturbing pictures of the famine being broadcast on the news. Disturbing pictures on the news are now so routine as to be ignored .. or vanish altogether.

More likely ignored because there's things that draw more views happening elsewhere. Hong Kong protests took over the news for a while, but then there was the Coronavirus and suddenly the Hong Kong protests seem to no longer be a thing and the people forgotten.

Are the Hong Kong protests still happening? Or did everyone stay at home during the pandemic?

It looks like the situation is now "punchup in the legislature, but everyone is wearing facemasks": https://www.scmp.com/news/hong-kong/politics/article/3084822...

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#36

Post by boomboomsubban »

jajag wrote: post #23
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

>But governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government, or the necessary vision of their role to accompany that.

The potato blight hit all of Europe, yet there were roughly a hundred thousand deaths in Europe compared to a million in Ireland with two million more emigrating. While Ireland certainly was more reliant on the potato than other countries, the rest of Europe seemed much more capable of addressing the crisis.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#37

Post by xenocyon »

aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A bit of a digression, but the same was true of famines in India under British rule. India (i.e. Britain) was exporting rice and wheat to England at the same time that a third of Bengal died from starvation.

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#38

Post by youngNed »

jajag wrote: post #23
aclimatt wrote: post #20

Since the article only very lightly touches on it and some may be understandably confused about the "solidarity" between the Irish and Native Americans, the "Potato Famine" was only so deadly in Ireland to the Irish due to years of colonial rule -- not because the only food in Ireland were rotten potatoes. Ireland had plenty of food at the time. They even continued to export food to England. It's just that due to sys…

A more accurate portrayal of the situation is to say that Ireland of the time was a state whose economy depended on the export of premium food products - cattle, dairy & grain - whilst the majority of the population were subsistence tenant farmers who grew that produce in order to pay for their farm tenancies, whilst growing a side crop of potatoes in order to sustain themselves. When the potato blight occurred, they…

Good Lord.

>> A more accurate portrayal of the situation

By which measure? Because:

>> Ireland of the time was a state

No, no it was not, it was under direct rule of Westmminster as part of the United Kingdom of Great Britain & Ireland

>> most of the landlords [..] at this time were Irish

In that _some_ were born on the island of Ireland? Like the earl of lucan[1] who owned some 63,000 acres - is that what we mean when we go with the 'irish did this to themselves' narrative?

>> they were operating within an economic system were these actions made sense

Words actually fail me. Yes, i suppose it probably did make sense to those who were making money, yes.

>> But governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government, or the necessary vision of their role to accompany that.

This is ridiculous, The British government spent less than half a percent of the GNP at the time on relief for ireland, Lord Clarendon called it a 'policy of extermination'. The truth is that at best the british government at the time was not concerned by what was happening, at worse they saw it as a catalyst for change to tighten their grip.

I hold absolutely no truck with those that claim the great famine to be a genocide, but this 'ah well, actually if you look closely, you'll find the irish did it to themselves' is even more irksome.

[1] http://www.askaboutireland.ie/reading-room/history-heritage/...

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#39

Post by youngNed »

As is the case in a lot of discussion that touches on Irish History, in this thread there are a lot of really bad takes - for anyone interested in a good, well balanced, summary delivered by experts in under an hour - i really recommend the BBC 'In Our Time' podcast on this subject - as with all of these shows, its pretty dense with info and facts from a number of sources:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0003rj1

Re: Behind Irish outpouring of relief for Navajo

#40

Post by borvo »

jajag wrote: post #30
paublyrne wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree that it's a simplification to blame the famine on 'British oppression', but to say `governments of the 1840s simply didn't have the scope of action available to a modern government` is something of a strawman. There were a number of interventions accessible by the government. As parent points out there was ideological resistance to employing them, and where employed they were done so weakly and without enthus…

I didn't say that the British government had no scope of action, but that it was limited compare to what a modern government could do. That this was further compounded by the attitudes and beliefs of members of the government of the time there's no doubt. But to be explicit about this, I believe that had there been an independent Irish state at the time, it would have continued to export food because not to do so wou…

Before the act of union of 1801 the Irish parliament, although pretty ineffectual, did block food exports during times of crisis. Even in the year of slaughter 1740 when a short term famine was caused by climate change food exports were stopped by a combination of local officials and angry citizens. The difference in the 1840s was the presence of a large number of troops who protected food exports at gunpoint. It is nonsense to suggest that an independent Irish State would have continued to export food in these conditions: it wouldn't have lasted a week.
Post reply on HN