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Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

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Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

TETRA isn't interoperable?

Its introduction has been an unmitigated disaster in Germany (as apparently and unfortunately is wont in Germany), see https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/BOS-Funk#Einf%C3%BChrung_in_De... (German-only, sorry). It's still not universally implemented and hospitals aren't part of the network either.

That's funny. UK is now switching off TETRA to a new ESN network; based on LTE. Quite a few issues with it, so it will be a while yet, but most of the masts are built. It will also allow coverage in rural areas to improve (as operators can share the masts built for the emergency network).

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#162
post #58

This is part of a broader problem. Many "apps" from WhatsApp to Zoom are treated as public spaces by citizens. But, legally the app-space is closer to a private space. This creates a mismatch between reality and expectations. (Zuckerberg can delete his chat history and you could not until Europe passed legislation forcing Facebook to do so.) I suffered the "Windows only" of gubernamental applications that excluded Li…

>The USA is in a position to shutdown all the technological infrastructure of Europe (AWS, Google, Facebook, Azure, ...) and to openly spy its citizens OK, and what can we do about that? We build our own successful cars, we build our own successful planes but it seems like when it comes to building highly scalable world dominating software we are powerless even though our universities churn out tons of talented CS en…

> What does the US do right that we do wrong here?

I have worked for a number of really successful Swedish software companies, all of them have been purchased by American companies. From Skype to Candy Crush, all companies are owned by USA corporations. USA is a rich country and has accumulated enough wealth to buy any competing economy.

China, when it comes to technology, has created an extremely innovative environment and growth local talent beyond what Europe can dream. (Before anyone complains about China "stealing" American technology, just remember that most of American technology was "stolen" from Europe after WWII. Except, that sharing technological advances should not be seen as stealing but as global collaboration for the improvement of humankind).

Just to make sure that I am not misunderstood. I do not think that the USA has done anything wrong, I just think that Europe, until recently, has not been in a position to compete with the USA. Not even Germany, one of the biggest and one of more successful economies in Europe, can compete with the USA as a whole. Europe failure has been to not unite and align their positions. A divided Europe cannot compete internationally, that is our fault. Internal-country markets are too small to create a software industry, or a film industry. Only aviation and car manufacturing have growth thanks to a heavy government intervention that forced a consolidation and shared efforts at European level, showing that the approach works.

USA and Europe should be partners, a week European Union will not be relevant in the world, a divided European Union would individual states up for grabs for other international powers (UK probably by the USA, southern regions have seen China investment increasing and Russia maybe temporally incapacitated but sooner or later will come back).

So, I believe that Europe has done some things poorly, event that also had done great things, as keeping one of the higher standards of living in the world. The current pandemic is creating a re-thinking on how countries interact between them. Isolation is not a solution, not even for China, and I hope that we do not get there. But, we need to find a way that each region can protect its own interest while sharing its wealth and knowledge with the rest.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#163
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We pay devs worse because software is a complete aftertought, and the guys who produce it therefore are not seen as adding much value, if any. Meanwhile, the "software is eating the world" memo is almost 10 years old yet nobody this side of the pond got it. Fix this mindset (good luck!), which is the real issue, and dev wages will correct themselves too.

I never felt I was earning worse than on US, while enjoying my 30 days vacations, home office, unemployment support, health insurance and having a privileged life above many of my friends in "regular" (non-IT related) jobs.

In which country is 30 days standard vacation?

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#164
post #58

This is part of a broader problem. Many "apps" from WhatsApp to Zoom are treated as public spaces by citizens. But, legally the app-space is closer to a private space. This creates a mismatch between reality and expectations. (Zuckerberg can delete his chat history and you could not until Europe passed legislation forcing Facebook to do so.) I suffered the "Windows only" of gubernamental applications that excluded Li…

“I hope for a return to sanity and open standards. The alternative is heavy regulated monopolies, no government is going to allow this situation to go for long, like the telecommunications industry. And, that does not work so well.”

I do hope for heavily regulated and accountable monopolies. Open standards what for? The current internet doesn’t differ from electricity or water; it’s not a network running on top of the phone network, but a commodity by itself.

You cannot avoid hardware manufactures, so let’s stop to argue idealistically about a technological solution to a political problem.

My current view is “the more people in WhatsApp, the more power for states to rule” –so spent your time caring of your institutions and not creating utopian technological alternatives; look at the Pinboard’s guy: ACT.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#165
post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There's an article right now on the FP about the Netherlands helping GCHQ break Argentinean encryption. EU EU cooperation is different though than US EU cooperation. I will very much agree though, that GCHQ has been in bed with NSA for far too long and it's disgusting. But I think there's a clear delineation between: "Our government does shady things" and "Another nations government does shady things, and incidenta…

This actually preceded the EU as it was during the Falklands situation, and I don't think EU EU cooperation is inherently different if interests are misaligned (which has happened many times between EU members), or if a country (e.g. the UK) chooses to leave the EU. I was hoping to at least illustrate that European countries (particularly EU countries) have for many years gone out of their way to invade the privacy o…

if I seem like I am hypocritical then it is because I don't scan these things as being the same at all.

Cooperation is very different from dependence.

The rest of your comment seems to assume that I'm talking about "bad things that we do to each other" and I'm not really talking about that at all, merely our dependence on a foreign ally that has unclear motives.

Here's some things that I consider to be true:

1) Our intelligence services are in bed together, that's bad.

2) Our governments are blindly allowing (or in some cases supporting) monopolies of other nations industries. That's bad.

3) Our countries are both victims _and_ perpetrators, there's no black/white divide here. But our peoples will be worse off.

4) We're taking on a debt that has a very high interest later.

I don't think cooperation and pooling of resources is the same as pinning an entire section of society on another country.

For a concrete example, imagine that we're pretty friendly with Germany, we decide to let them be our postmen, they carry all post for us. Eventually we don't have the capacity to deliver mail anymore, the logistics are completely lost on us.

The Germans open our mail, their government "allows" it, and there's nothing we can do because the post is somehow routed via Germany and not our jurisdiction anymore. We do nothing, because we trust the germans, maybe a stern warning, maybe certain mail has to be routed in-country. But the Germans say that this is stifling industry.

Later, Germany invades poland, all our postmen are German, all the trucks are German, all the infrastructure that depends on post is German.

You might argue that this is absurd, but this is how I see the situation with the USA.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#166
post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not everyone already has it.

In the Netherlands it was the platform that was easy to install and didn't cost money per message. SMS was pretty expensive back then. Whatsapp quickly became the defacto messaging app. The word "whatsapping" even replaced "sms'ing". At this point in time you need Whatsapp (Or Messenger when you don't have their number yet) The only time I get an SMS now is for specific multi-factor authentications or automated updat…

What about just “apping” is that a word? On a business trip earlier this year my colleague told me (in English) “I’ll meet you down at the bar after apping with my daughter.”

Now that I think about it I’m not sure if “apping” implies texting, voice call, or video call. Lol

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#167
post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

> Every time an article about Whatsapp on HN or Reddit pops up I fearfully look to see if there are legitimate privacy concerns. There are legitimate privacy concerns. The main concern here is that Facebook builds up a network of who you are in contact with, how often you message them, when you message them, etc. You are either not aware of this or you don't mind, but calling it illegitimate is not a fair assessment…

+1 althought I'd replace "why is this thing free" with "what am I paying with"

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#168
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I got my first smart phone around 2011. In 2011 I was a student in university and I had friends in my circle from Erasmus so they kept their phone number from their own country. In 2011 it wasn’t even free for me to send a sms to people from my own country so I couldn’t even imagine sending sms to people internationally even though they were physically in the same city as me. Well one day a friend told me to download…

It's interesting. Whatsapp didn't start out to be a messanger app for the world. It didn't start out to be a replacement for SMS, it started as a tool for frequent flyers to be able to set a status on their iphone in the same way you could on Yahoo messenger. Frequent flyers weren't particularly enthusiastic "It appears that this requires the other party to also have the app installed, right?" https://www.flyertalk.c…

That’s wild. I had no idea that the original feature of WhatsApp is a feature that I have literally never even looked at and forgot even exists lol

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#169
post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never felt I was earning worse than on US, while enjoying my 30 days vacations, home office, unemployment support, health insurance and having a privileged life above many of my friends in "regular" (non-IT related) jobs.

In which country is 30 days standard vacation?

I have experience across Germany, Switzerland, France, Greece.

It is not the legal minimum, usually around 22, but you can easily negotiate it.

Back home, in Portugal, 25 days.

Ah, and if manage a position at a research institute like CERN, you can up it to 45, because usually they close around Christmas and it doesn't count for vacations.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#170
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you are underestimating the degree to which requires only a phone number is a killer feature: -you download the app and can immediately get started after verifying your phone number (no ID or password required) -you don't need to share any ID or connection details other than just your phone number I spend a lot of time in India, and I think this lack of complexity has contributed significantly to its virality…

> you don't need to share any ID My phone number is an ID. An ID I don't want to share. An ID that can be stolen by calling the phone company and saying you're me and bought a new SIM.

Then you need to realize that you are a special case and not representative of the general public.

Most people who meet each other in real life and want to exchange contact information exchange… you guessed it… a phone number. Maybe you exchange email or twitter handle, but again you are an exception here. So imagine we meet for the first time and we exchange phone numbers. Now I can WhatsApp you, just like that no other account info needed.

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