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TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

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Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#111
post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait a minute... You're pretending like trade is only "fair" if selling happens in both directions. Doesn't that fly directly in the face of what trade means? You buy something, but you get value in return. That's why it's not called "donation". If the thing you bought is not valuable to you then why did you buy it in the first place? Also, there is all this talk about "forced" tech transfers, but nobody forced US co…

You cannot sell certain service to china. That is not fair.

That’s true for all countries though in some capacity.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I want to explore something related to morality - what is the end game of humans? If the end game is to fallback on tribal instincts and identity, then we are easily equiped to assure mutual destruction. If the end game is to keep inventing bigger, better, faster, cheaper things and climb on the technology ladder enabled by the machinery of competition, then there has to be fairness built into the rulebook. O…

I agree with the abstract idea of fairness, having rules, etc. But the devil lies in the implementation. A dogmatic free trade order mainly benefits the establishment: the western powers. If China adopts free trade principles in a dogmatic manner then they will be tremendously hurt by it. And it's not like the US plays very fair either: the US outright rejects a lot of international rules. For example there is a US l…

> I agree with the abstract idea of fairness, having rules, etc. But the devil lies in the implementation.

Particularly around IP law, which is what China is most flagrant about ignoring. Nothing in IP law comes from any sense natural principle. It is all arbitrary judgements.

It makes sense for America to claim IP is important since they own most of it, but it is wise for China to ignore their arguments as far as they can get away with it.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#113

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

Right but what does that have to do with a Taiwanese company? That’s the part I have trouble with. According to the U.S.’s own policy, Taiwan and what we call China are the same country. So the U.S. is putting restrictions on a company for taking business from another company from the same country. U.S. needs to work on making its foreign policy self consistent. Recognizing Taiwan as a separate country would be a gre…

> According to the U.S.’s own policy, Taiwan and what we call China are the same country.

That's a mistaken interpretation and it has been clarified on numerous occasions.

There are two critical words to the context: recognize and acknowledge. And two separate entities to be considered as far as the US is concerned: China and Taiwan. The US has intentionally left the situation in limbo, to neither give in to China nor prompt a military confrontation between China and Taiwan.

The US does not officially recognize China and Taiwan as one. The US "acknowledges" China's position; specifically China's belief that they are one country.

Here is a good explanation:

> The United States did not, however, give in to Chinese demands that it recognize Chinese sovereignty over Taiwan (which is the name preferred by the United States since it opted to de-recognize the ROC). Instead, Washington acknowledged the Chinese position that Taiwan was part of China. For geopolitical reasons, both the United States and the PRC were willing to go forward with diplomatic recognition despite their differences on this matter. When China attempted to change the Chinese text from the original acknowledge to recognize, Deputy Secretary of State Warren Christopher told a Senate hearing questioner, “[W]e regard the English text as being the binding text. We regard the word ‘acknowledge’ as being the word that is determinative for the U.S.” In the August 17, 1982, U.S.-China Communique, the United States went one step further, stating that it had no intention of pursuing a policy of “two Chinas” or “one China, one Taiwan.”

> To this day, the U.S. “one China” position stands: the United States recognizes the PRC as the sole legal government of China but only acknowledges the Chinese position that Taiwan is part of China.

https://www.csis.org/analysis/what-us-one-china-policy-and-w...

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were genuine questions, not patronizing. I just don't agree with the characterization that things are "unfair". I don't see how you can recognize that buying means getting value in return while still talking about fairness at the same time. The fairness is already embedded in the very transaction! You talk about anti-competitiveness, but isn't that just a matter of perspective and not an absolute moral high gro…

I think I want to explore something related to morality - what is the end game of humans? If the end game is to fallback on tribal instincts and identity, then we are easily equiped to assure mutual destruction. If the end game is to keep inventing bigger, better, faster, cheaper things and climb on the technology ladder enabled by the machinery of competition, then there has to be fairness built into the rulebook. O…

Dude, your tirade about fair west and unfair evil chinese, give me a break. Sounds like reading Trump's twitter if I had the stomach for it and too much free time to waste.

US does behave amorally tons of times, so does EU, so does everybody else. US slapping super massive tariffs on non-US products (airplanes for example) ain't fair to european manufacturers by any definition, and if we aren't allies anymore, then who is. US stealing trade secrets via NSA, spying on all foreign politicians, dissent, supporting dictators and so on.

The thing is, out there is mostly unrestrained capitalism - everybody for themselves, and help even between allies normally only comes if its mutually beneficial. US has very little moral ground if any in this topic.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#115
Suppose the actors were different: wouldn't this be like, for instance, Germany forbidding a Brazilian company from exporting a widget it manufactured to the USA, just because the Brazilian company had used a German-made lathe in its Brazilian factory to make the widget?

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#116

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

There is the question of the long term effect of policies like even just threatening to block major Chinese actors thanks to doubtful instruments (the US is basically the only power that attempts and manages to rule the world by claiming and effectively constructing jurisdiction on everything that touches a US dollar, or any kind of tech that has even just minor relationship with the US). Meanwhile the China has already become a major power and even just the threat of a tech blockade will motivate them to develop their own; and we are now past the mere threat points...

What will happen when they will own all the supply chains and the buyers will have the choice between US tech, with their propension to want to rule the world, or Chinese tech; of course China may eventually do the same thing as the US, but strategically it is easy enough to not do it for long enough so that it is a major advantage to develop their market.

In (at least parts of) the EU, btw, we see this attitude of the US as a critical problem, more than a solution... As far as those kind of affairs are concerned, we don't view the US as a close ally but more as a distant cousin which is sometimes even a blatant economic enemy, especially when they attempt and do rule the world through $US and tech policies (and demonstrated, not only suspected, systematized world scale espionage). For example the embargo on Iran is particularly problematic. The China might be "worse" than the US in some dimensions, including critical ones, but there are some movement in the EU to guarantee/redevelop our independence from the US too, and this involves developing our own versions of more technologies which are for now originating from the US in a far too large proportion, given their policies and the risk they produce. (For some of those projects already existing, I suspect they initially won't be very successful, but that is another issue; if the problem becomes more pressing, there is no reason to not be able to do it: 10 or 20 years is an eternity in tech, but international equilibrium is a longterm affair)

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#117
post #115

Suppose the actors were different: wouldn't this be like, for instance, Germany forbidding a Brazilian company from exporting a widget it manufactured to the USA, just because the Brazilian company had used a German-made lathe in its Brazilian factory to make the widget?

I don't think you can talk about this in terms of just rules. What is happening here is one world superpower is using all the leverage it can to attack another world power. Germany isn't going to do this firstly because it doesn't have the leverage and secondly because they're not interested in playing that sort of raw power politics. This is how cold wars are conducted, the belligerents pour resources into strategically important partners. In this case the US is applying pressure on TSMC to damage Chinese technology companies, which they need to do because their local strategic manufacturer(Intel) is falling behind. You're going to continue to see the US find reasons to pour money into partnerships with everyone on China's front door. Meanwhile China will pour resources into partnerships with Europe, Russia and Australia to try and pry US partners away.

There's no "Fair" in this situation, there's only "Winning" by forcing China into compliance with US demands.

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Those were genuine questions, not patronizing. I just don't agree with the characterization that things are "unfair". I don't see how you can recognize that buying means getting value in return while still talking about fairness at the same time. The fairness is already embedded in the very transaction! You talk about anti-competitiveness, but isn't that just a matter of perspective and not an absolute moral high gro…

I think I want to explore something related to morality - what is the end game of humans? If the end game is to fallback on tribal instincts and identity, then we are easily equiped to assure mutual destruction. If the end game is to keep inventing bigger, better, faster, cheaper things and climb on the technology ladder enabled by the machinery of competition, then there has to be fairness built into the rulebook. O…

>> I think I want to explore something related to morality - what is the end game of humans

Such hubris.

So the heads of two powerful nations are to decide the fate of humanity - where is the morality in that ?

And why does there have to be an endgame ? and who are we to decide ?

Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#119

To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. The problem starts when there is a massive asymmetry in the trade. China has completely blocked US services from Google to Uber, and gladly accepts manufacturing investment - Tesla Shanghai factory, Intel's Chengdu factory, etc. because the CCP knows that they will gain tremen…

> To preface, firstly - I am a supporter of free global trade and greater collaboration between countries to maximize the benefit of each other. "To preface", "As an X", etc are easy tells that you really aren't what you claim. Just say what you want rather than defensively qualifying it. Most of us here see right through it and it's a waste of bits. > America should protect its own interests and interests of other d…

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Re: TSMC halts new Huawei orders after US tightens restrictions

#120
post #98
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, if you do business in China and recognise Taiwan, you will be shown the door and/or your. business will be literally stolen, so... it's not really different. It's about time we start making China accountable. It's about time we start blocking Tencent and Alibaba from further American acquisition or investment. It's about time we restrict and throttle CCP-controlled media platforms like Tiktok; the same way Ch…

This approach will only have impact in short term. You can be sure that TSMC is working behind the scene to create a legal entity to work around this legislation and get one of its main customers back. There's just 2 potential outcomes: - TSMC having found a way to workaround that restrictions and gaining back Huwaeï - China being forced to quickly gain the same level of expertise In both situation the outcome is eve…

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