Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#101

Post by vetinari » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

flohofwoe wrote: post #70

vetinari wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gtalk came with the original Android 1.0, and you were already signed up with your gmail account when you set up your phone with OOBE.

Could you chat with people on iOS with this? Or with people who didn't have a Google account, or didn't want to setup yet another account at all? Being a free and hassle-free drop-in replacement for SMS was the main appeal of WhatsApp at the time. If there would have been alternatives with the same features, WhatsApp would never have become popular in the first place.

Everyone (in Joel Spolsky meaning of everyone) already had an gmail account. Not giving out phone number was a feature.

When Whatsapp started out, it was free only for the first year; after that, they wanted a payment. What this experiment has shown, that people did very short term decision without regards for long term.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#102

Post by greggman3 » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:07 AM UTC

Aaronmacaron wrote: post #24

tasogare wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never understood the appeal of WhatsApp: it requires a phone number (so it’s useless or hard to setup abroad, and it’s tied to a very personal data), handle very poorly wifi connection (somehow it seems to only update when connected over 4G) and force me to download pictures and videos to see them, trashing my photo folder in the process. It also has no killer features in comparison to any existing messaging app…

The appeal of WhatsApp is simply that everyone already has it. It's the only messaging platform that can be used to message all your contacts. Network effect, that's it.

No one in Japan has it. (well, of course not no one but effectively no one). Here it's Line.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#103

Post by nujabe » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:09 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #97

b0tch7 wrote: post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

FD: I'm an iPhone user. (not a die-hard, but I haven't found a decent android I can get along with permanently). Aside from the number of people (network effects) on WhatsApp, what does it have over something like telegram, signal or any of the other cross-platform messengers? Devils advocate for a moment: Signal is pretty consistent, for a "no frills" chat solution, the UX is worse but it is still consistent across…

>I'm an iPhone user. (not a die-hard, but I haven't found a decent android I can get along with permanently

Try Google Pixel. Always have been an Android user and the Pixel has the Android experience imo.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#104

Post by greggman3 » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:10 AM UTC

b0tch7 wrote: post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

> great desktop app

Beg to differ. The Windows WhatsApp App has full permissions to use your entire machine, change your register, use your camera and mic without notification, read and or modify all your files, scan your network, watch all network traffic, catalog all the apps you have and see what they are doing, and use/access any all peripherals

No, that is not a "great app". Especially coming from Facebook.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#105

Post by dijit » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:11 AM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #58

This is part of a broader problem. Many "apps" from WhatsApp to Zoom are treated as public spaces by citizens. But, legally the app-space is closer to a private space. This creates a mismatch between reality and expectations. (Zuckerberg can delete his chat history and you could not until Europe passed legislation forcing Facebook to do so.) I suffered the "Windows only" of gubernamental applications that excluded Li…

I wish I had more than one upvote, this capitulates perfectly my feelings on the situation.

I see the same sentiment echoed in our American friends w.r.t. Chinese spying. Huawei is dangerous and must be stopped, but the NSA having broken encryption a bunch of times, sending NSL's to chip makers and such is fine.

And that is not seen as hypocritical.

We as Europeans have no technological industry without the USA, and the USA has done nothing to assuage fears that they will backdoor everything they can without remit.

In fact, it's not only that we have no technical industry; it's that we actively pander to it and lock ourselves into it in perpetuity, ensuring that in a given future where we desire some level of independence that it will be as painful as possible.

"Chrome only" is the new "IE6 only" and services only accessible via Android/iPhone apps are a part of it too.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#106

Post by lucideer » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:14 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #97

b0tch7 wrote: post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

FD: I'm an iPhone user. (not a die-hard, but I haven't found a decent android I can get along with permanently). Aside from the number of people (network effects) on WhatsApp, what does it have over something like telegram, signal or any of the other cross-platform messengers? Devils advocate for a moment: Signal is pretty consistent, for a "no frills" chat solution, the UX is worse but it is still consistent across…

> Aside from the number of people (network effects)

Network effects is it.

> if the answer is: "but network effects", why not Facebook messenger?

This is a good point, and I'm not really sure, but some guesses:

- Branding. During it's initial growth WhatsApp was a FB alternative and FB was in decline. Even after acquisition, awareness of the ownership wasn't immediately widespread.

- Contextual app differentiation. Facebook didn't separate its messenger from it's main platform quickly enough and even when they did, they're both conceptually considered a single package. People these days like separation of contexts.

- Phone numbers. WhatsApp was hard-linked to your phone contacts from the off, making it familiar to SMS users. Facebook jumping on phone numbers has followed slowly in a less focused manner.

- Less confusion for tech-illiterate. There's no posts or pages or walls. It's just like SMS.

> it has the same reach if not greater.

Anecdotal, but I don't feel this is true anymore. I certainly know a lot more people without Facebook than without WhatsApp.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#107

Post by Deganta » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:15 AM UTC

dijit wrote: post #97

b0tch7 wrote: post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

FD: I'm an iPhone user. (not a die-hard, but I haven't found a decent android I can get along with permanently). Aside from the number of people (network effects) on WhatsApp, what does it have over something like telegram, signal or any of the other cross-platform messengers? Devils advocate for a moment: Signal is pretty consistent, for a "no frills" chat solution, the UX is worse but it is still consistent across…

Where I live (Austria), Facebook messenger does not have the same reach as Whatsapp.

Pretty much everyone with a Smartphone has Whatsapp, but there are lots of people without a Facebook Account. These are mostly older people. There are also people (like me, but I know several others) who do have a Facebook account, but don't use it on their phone.

The really nice thing about Whatsapp is the installation experience. Just download the App from Google Play/Appstore. Start it. Confirm your phone number. And you can communicate with all your friends. Facebook is much harder in this regards. Signal is similar, "but network effects".

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#108

Post by 0x006A » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:18 AM UTC

urxvtcd wrote: post #15

Markoff wrote: post #10

If they discourage people from using something, they should tell people what is the alternative. I've been user of Signal for years, but with recent changes especially with screen nagging me and everyone else to enter PIN I'm going back to Whatsapp, which was my secondary messenger, but which has most contacts anyway. What are the other options - Messenger, Telegram, Skype or whatever Google kills this year, which ar…

> forcing you to create PIN nobody asked for You do realize that user profiles is one of the most requested features, right?

Nobody asked for spaced repetition nagging, and no way to turn it off. its so condescending and stupid of them. If you don't give users a choice, the only choice left to them is to stop using your app.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#109

Post by chpmrc » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:19 AM UTC

greggman3 wrote: post #104

b0tch7 wrote: post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

> great desktop app Beg to differ. The Windows WhatsApp App has full permissions to use your entire machine, change your register, use your camera and mic without notification, read and or modify all your files, scan your network, watch all network traffic, catalog all the apps you have and see what they are doing, and use/access any all peripherals No, that is not a "great app". Especially coming from Facebook.

Use the web app then. Once you're on the page use one of the "shortcut" features of Chrome or Edge and you can open it as a separate app.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#110

Post by specialist » Mon, May 18, 2020, 11:21 AM UTC

Hokusai wrote: post #58

This is part of a broader problem. Many "apps" from WhatsApp to Zoom are treated as public spaces by citizens. But, legally the app-space is closer to a private space. This creates a mismatch between reality and expectations. (Zuckerberg can delete his chat history and you could not until Europe passed legislation forcing Facebook to do so.) I suffered the "Windows only" of gubernamental applications that excluded Li…

"Many "apps" from WhatsApp to Zoom are treated as public spaces by citizens. But, legally the app-space is closer to a private space."

Clay Shirky's Here Comes Everyone points out this disconnect between social norms and technical reality.

IIRC the book example is kids talking at the mall's food court. While it's not private, as in hidden away, they're talking to each other, not to us adults.

You could eavesdrop. But why would you? That's creepy.