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Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

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Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#91

Let's hope that Germany and other EU countries, including EU institutions adopt or at least consider Matrix, like French did. https://matrix.org/blog/2018/04/26/matrix-and-riot-confirmed...

And they did, what governments do, they failed... https://techcrunch.com/2019/04/19/security-flaw-in-french-go...

There was a bug, not exploited, fixed immediately... And you hold that as government failure... I won't try and lecture you about government efficiency, but you really should do something about your confirmation bias.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#92
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Except that this is a feature of every messaging app. It's not really a response to It wasn't 11 years ago.

Yes, it was. For example, I ran AIM on a BlackBerry. MSN Messenger was around 11 years ago too.

That's not a replacement from SMS since those aren't based on phone numbers. If you have the phone number of somebody and they have WhatsApp installed you can message them immediately. If you both have AIM or MSN installed you have to exchange your handles through some other channel. That's a massive difference in terms of usability and friction to get started.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#93
post #19

For further reading (in German), there's been a nice and well-researched article on Golem a while ago: https://www.golem.de/news/datenschutz-duerfen-aerzte-lehrer-... Also, Microsoft sending Cease and Desist letter to the German city-state of Berlin as it wrote a policy advising against Skype (German too): https://www.t-online.de/digital/internet/id_87890600/skype-u...

And the German army just announced it follows the French government in migrating its instant messaging entirely to Matrix. https://www.golem.de/news/messenger-bundeswehr-will-komplett... (and recent discussion https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23152780)

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#94
post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can change the setting for photos not be saved to your camera roll. And in my experience whatsapp has the best connectivity.

Same here. Other messaging apps don't receive messages, yet WhatsApp does. Don't know how but it works.

Many operators "zero-rate" WhatsApp, meaning that you can access the service without having to pay for a higher tier full data connection. It's true for many mobile data plans and even sometimes wifi hotspots. It's shitty because it gives WhatsApp an advantage that's extremely hard to compete with but it does make it a lot more reliable and cheap to use than some alternatives.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#95
post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

Add to that great voice and video calls.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#96
post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Weren't there lots of featurephones with whatsapp in the past? And that helped a lot with getting widely deployed? It seems to be available on cheap feature phones now anyway: https://www.gizbot.com/mobile/features/fnord-047499.html

I'm sure there were but not on mine and that's just fine by me. The last thing I need in my life is Mark Zuckerberg reading over my shoulder.

As I've heard it, the alternative that drove the first hundred million users was the telco reading over your shoulder and/or randomly dropping your messages on the floor.

Whatsapp grew big with customers of telcos like Vodafone, which may be less capable than Mark Zuckerberg's snoopshop but I wouldn't bet on their being nicer. See https://toroid.org/vodafone-smtp-mitm for example.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#97
post #86

I'm an Android lifer (all my smartphones) and now live in Australia. I use Whatsapp for 99% of my personal messaging and frankly, I love it. Same messaging experience for everyone (including emojis), great desktop app, easy backup & restore as you switch phones, was early on the reply-swipe functionality, easy forwarding, voice messages, . No, none of these are "killer" features, but it's honestly one of the purest e…

FD: I'm an iPhone user. (not a die-hard, but I haven't found a decent android I can get along with permanently).

Aside from the number of people (network effects) on WhatsApp, what does it have over something like telegram, signal or any of the other cross-platform messengers?

Devils advocate for a moment:

Signal is pretty consistent, for a "no frills" chat solution, the UX is worse but it is still consistent across platforms.

Telegram does everything WhatsApp does but "better", native desktop apps, voice calling is clearer, it still very consistent. You can even have "usernames"; the UX is clearly superior. But the security model is questionable.

And if the answer is: "but network effects", why not Facebook messenger? it has the same reach if not greater.

So, why WhatsApp?

(this is a genuine question, I'm not trolling).

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#98
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve never understood the appeal of WhatsApp: it requires a phone number (so it’s useless or hard to setup abroad, and it’s tied to a very personal data), handle very poorly wifi connection (somehow it seems to only update when connected over 4G) and force me to download pictures and videos to see them, trashing my photo folder in the process. It also has no killer features in comparison to any existing messaging app…

I think you are underestimating the degree to which requires only a phone number is a killer feature: -you download the app and can immediately get started after verifying your phone number (no ID or password required) -you don't need to share any ID or connection details other than just your phone number I spend a lot of time in India, and I think this lack of complexity has contributed significantly to its virality…

> you don't need to share any ID

My phone number is an ID. An ID I don't want to share. An ID that can be stolen by calling the phone company and saying you're me and bought a new SIM.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#99
post #12

Generally I'm for stronger data protection, but German officials relationship to WhatsApp is a bit silly, I always wonder what their conrete worry or attack scenario is. That a rouge employee at WhatsApp can see your metadata or access your telefone book? That the US government can see your metadata? Criminal and state actors have access to most of that information anyway.

Cambridge Analytica showed there is a huge private market for data. Why should any government put its connections into a private corporation? Just because some criminals or state actors can obtain that information illegally does not mean we should provide that data willingly and legally. As a side note, I find it strange that you are for stronger data protection and at the same time think it is "silly" to avoid data…

> As a side note, I find it strange that you are for stronger data protection and at the same time think it is "silly" to avoid data collection companies such as WhatsApp.

For example, I would advocate to allow anonymous phones again. Since a few years you can only get a SIM card with identity verification in Germany.

I would also disallow third parties to create profiles of anybody, and I would ban the sale of such data. Currently as a company you can even make queries to the local "Einwohnermeldeamt" (registration office) and for a fee get address and other data of residents. I'm opposed to that, as well as the data collection going on at credit score agencies.

Personally I think what German officials are doing is often data protection theatre, akin to security theatre.

But I think WhatsApp is somewhat unavoidable, and after weighing the pros and cons I don't think it is reasonable to ban it (I know it is banned e.g. by many municipalities, schools, and trade unions for communication with citizens). It's better to allow it so you can reach people for whom this is the medium of choice, as long as you always provide a safer alternative of course.

If I could decide, I would also require every messenger and social network above say one million users to provide federation. Being able to access your own data the way you want is just as important an aspect of "data protection" as locking it down! And it would force competition and prevent one entitiy from being too big to avoid.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The appeal of WhatsApp is simply that everyone already has it. It's the only messaging platform that can be used to message all your contacts. Network effect, that's it.

Not everyone already has it.

In the Netherlands it was the platform that was easy to install and didn't cost money per message. SMS was pretty expensive back then. Whatsapp quickly became the defacto messaging app. The word "whatsapping" even replaced "sms'ing". At this point in time you need Whatsapp (Or Messenger when you don't have their number yet)

The only time I get an SMS now is for specific multi-factor authentications or automated updates from companies. A lot of businesses even do their live support through Whatsapp now.

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