Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go • Hacker News Board

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#21

Post by cecja » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:32 AM UTC

Markoff wrote: post #10

If they discourage people from using something, they should tell people what is the alternative. I've been user of Signal for years, but with recent changes especially with screen nagging me and everyone else to enter PIN I'm going back to Whatsapp, which was my secondary messenger, but which has most contacts anyway. What are the other options - Messenger, Telegram, Skype or whatever Google kills this year, which ar…

This is about official state offices like the arbeitsamt (department for unemployment) contacting citizens vie WhatsApp. Which does not comply with data privacy laws. There are other means of communication in place for these kind of correspondence. This is no letter to the general public. Funny enough it got released because of our version of your freedom of information act.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#22

Post by rapsey » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:32 AM UTC

captainmuon wrote: post #8

Generally I'm for stronger data protection, but German officials relationship to WhatsApp is a bit silly, I always wonder what their conrete worry or attack scenario is. That a rouge employee at WhatsApp can see your metadata or access your telefone book? That the US government can see your metadata? Criminal and state actors have access to most of that information anyway.

> German officials relationship to WhatsApp is a bit silly,

I find HN hivemind relationship to these apps quite silly. A government should never entrust any information to a third party it has zero control over. An individual consumer and a government employee working with classified information have vastly different responsibilities.

> I always wonder what their conrete worry or attack scenario is

The security of these public apps are akin to a glass cannon. Strong in one scenario, hilariously weak in another. State actors can easily circumvent and extract full text messages and not just metadata.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#23

Post by lambentor » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:33 AM UTC

I wasn't aware that the German government had a "Data Chief" position. This article refers to the Federal Commissioner for Data Protection and Freedom of Information. Because of the federal structure, his authority is complicated with many important decisions based on the regional level (Bundesland). While some people do use Signal, most people, don't care. Many doctors communicate via WhatsApp, as it's just faster / easier.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#24

Post by Aaronmacaron » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:34 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #18

ThePhysicist wrote: post #9

From my experience a lot of people will not hesitate to contact you via WhatsApp even in a professional setting if they can get hold of your phone number. After this happened several times to me I made sure to have a separate phone for business where no messengers or any "social" apps are installed. The funny side of this behavior is your client messaging you via WhatsApp but forgetting their profile picture shows th…

I’ve never understood the appeal of WhatsApp: it requires a phone number (so it’s useless or hard to setup abroad, and it’s tied to a very personal data), handle very poorly wifi connection (somehow it seems to only update when connected over 4G) and force me to download pictures and videos to see them, trashing my photo folder in the process. It also has no killer features in comparison to any existing messaging app…

The appeal of WhatsApp is simply that everyone already has it. It's the only messaging platform that can be used to message all your contacts. Network effect, that's it.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#25

Post by maltelandwehr » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:36 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #18

ThePhysicist wrote: post #9

From my experience a lot of people will not hesitate to contact you via WhatsApp even in a professional setting if they can get hold of your phone number. After this happened several times to me I made sure to have a separate phone for business where no messengers or any "social" apps are installed. The funny side of this behavior is your client messaging you via WhatsApp but forgetting their profile picture shows th…

I’ve never understood the appeal of WhatsApp: it requires a phone number (so it’s useless or hard to setup abroad, and it’s tied to a very personal data), handle very poorly wifi connection (somehow it seems to only update when connected over 4G) and force me to download pictures and videos to see them, trashing my photo folder in the process. It also has no killer features in comparison to any existing messaging app…

The appeal of WhatsApp was free text messages, which is still not a thing in many countries.

Plus free international text messages.

That’s is how they grew to a billion users without being a success in either the USA or China.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#26

Post by Markoff » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:36 AM UTC

urxvtcd wrote: post #15

Markoff wrote: post #10

If they discourage people from using something, they should tell people what is the alternative. I've been user of Signal for years, but with recent changes especially with screen nagging me and everyone else to enter PIN I'm going back to Whatsapp, which was my secondary messenger, but which has most contacts anyway. What are the other options - Messenger, Telegram, Skype or whatever Google kills this year, which ar…

> forcing you to create PIN nobody asked for You do realize that user profiles is one of the most requested features, right?

these are not user profiles, this is cloud backup of your contacts and settings

if it was trade off that together with PIN I can start using Signal without phone number on devices without SIM I would be much more understanding

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#27

Post by maltelandwehr » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:38 AM UTC

lambentor wrote: post #23

I wasn't aware that the German government had a "Data Chief" position. This article refers to the Federal Commissioner for Data Protection and Freedom of Information. Because of the federal structure, his authority is complicated with many important decisions based on the regional level (Bundesland). While some people do use Signal, most people, don't care. Many doctors communicate via WhatsApp, as it's just faster /…

There is a company in Germany that will do remote flu diagnostics via WhatsApp. They even send you the sick note for your employer via WhatsApp.

Schools use it to communicate with parents.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#28

Post by qznc » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:39 AM UTC

In german companies, I see an increasing use of Threema as the "official" messenger. Is that only a german trend?

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#29

Post by mytailorisrich » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:41 AM UTC

captainmuon wrote: post #8

Generally I'm for stronger data protection, but German officials relationship to WhatsApp is a bit silly, I always wonder what their conrete worry or attack scenario is. That a rouge employee at WhatsApp can see your metadata or access your telefone book? That the US government can see your metadata? Criminal and state actors have access to most of that information anyway.

> That the US government can see your metadata?

Not only metadata but the whole data transmissions.

Whatsapp may claim that transmissions are encrypted end-to-end but they control the app itself so can do whatever they want. The app distribution channels are also controlled by American companies.

So any government conducting communications through Whatsapp has in effect outsourced its communications to the US.

For important communications governments do not even trust off-the-self smartphones.

Re: Germany's data chief tells ministries WhatsApp is a no-go

#30

Post by kxxsc » Mon, May 18, 2020, 8:42 AM UTC

tasogare wrote: post #18

ThePhysicist wrote: post #9

From my experience a lot of people will not hesitate to contact you via WhatsApp even in a professional setting if they can get hold of your phone number. After this happened several times to me I made sure to have a separate phone for business where no messengers or any "social" apps are installed. The funny side of this behavior is your client messaging you via WhatsApp but forgetting their profile picture shows th…

I’ve never understood the appeal of WhatsApp: it requires a phone number (so it’s useless or hard to setup abroad, and it’s tied to a very personal data), handle very poorly wifi connection (somehow it seems to only update when connected over 4G) and force me to download pictures and videos to see them, trashing my photo folder in the process. It also has no killer features in comparison to any existing messaging app…

I think you are underestimating the degree to which requires only a phone number is a killer feature:

-you download the app and can immediately get started after verifying your phone number (no ID or password required) -you don't need to share any ID or connection details other than just your phone number

I spend a lot of time in India, and I think this lack of complexity has contributed significantly to its virality (I'd estimate that a pretty significant percentage of the user base does not have or regularly use an email account, which is usually a prerequisite to setting up many accounts).