Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive? • Hacker News Board

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#91

Post by arkitaip » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

haswell wrote: post #47

enitihas wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Restaurants might not be lazy in their core business functions, but that doesn't make them non lazy on other matters.

You need to find a different word that isn't "lazy". Perhaps a better way to say this is: restaurants are good at being restaurants, but aren't always good at establishing an online presence. A big part of why these delivery services succeed is that they provide a function that restaurants aren't well suited to provide on their own. This isn't about being lazy, it's about an industry needing to adapt to the new expec…

> Perhaps a better way to say this is: restaurants are good at being restaurants, but aren't always good at establishing an online presence.

That's the majority of all businesses. And like many similar industries, the razor thin margins don't allow restaurants to properly invest in tech.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#92

Post by Retric » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:22 PM UTC

tasty_freeze wrote: post #88

swiley wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I feel like the “people shouldn’t profit from catastrophe” thing is a big part of why it’s still hard to get PPE (no one can justify extra manufacturing etc.)

You misunderstand the difference between profiting and profiteering. Nobody is claiming companies should sell toilet paper at cost, but they are saying toilet paper shouldn't get 5x more expensive.

IMO some price increase is a good idea to discourage hoarding, promote investment, and promote alternatives like a bidet. But, I think you achieve most of that with simply doubling prices, after that it’s generally more harm than good.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#93

Post by blfr » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

ericzawo wrote: post #11

haltingproblem wrote: post #6

They thrive because people are lazy - both restaurant and their customers. Restaurants can make a concerted effort to ask regular clients to order from their own websites/apps but rarely do even when they can make an extra 10-15% after giving the customers 10% off. Customers are lazy because inspite of all the talk of supporting local, they are too hooked on click-click-click and ordered. The delivery apps have hundr…

Restaurants are a lot of things. But lazy is not one of them. Have you ever worked at a restaurant?

OK, complacent then. It doesn't change the argument.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#94

Post by basch » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:23 PM UTC

orev wrote: post #37

Apps are doing well because they are solving a real problem — translating restaurants’ abysmal web sites, PDF menus, and awful online ordering experiences to apps that “just work”. If restaurants put any effort at all into fixing those things, there would not be such a strong demand for apps. Obviously this is different for different restaurants, and the skill set needed to run a restaurant is vastly different from r…

Theres a nice friction removal for the customer. One account, only typing your credit card number in once, a consistent place to make a complaint or get a refund.

Visa, Amazon, Apple, Google, or Paypal sort of provide that function, but being able to shop many restaurants with a single identity has its benefits. Something that wouldnt be fixed just by restaurants with nice websites.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#95

Post by mhh__ » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

haltingproblem wrote: post #77

mhh__ wrote: post #54

> why should I'm not a huge fan of moralistic takes on business. If you're selling something dangerous then that's wrong, but it's very easy to be blinkered from a high position. If people want to buy food in a certain way I can't really blame them - arguably the same with Uber and taxis, Uber has disrupted an industry which was fairly uncompetitive and politically charged (Their prevalence indicates the customers ap…

Your take itself is a judgement. Does a company indulging in non-coerced commerce (i.e. voluntary) make it virtuous? Why is questioning the efficacy, for society, of the economic models of any company considered immoral? Capitalist enterprises are neither immoral (left) nor moral (right). They just happen to be the most efficient - read easy to cobble together. It does not mean they are the best outcome for society.

Best outcome for whom? I trust people to spend their own money in the way that they want rather than some top down dictated manner.

I don't like the societal purpose questioning because people forget that not everyone has a lot of money to spend - the trade-off will almost definitely be between "ethics" and the cost to the person on the street.

I don't buy my books from Amazon because I love Amazon, I do it because it's the cheapest option and I know it'll work. If you want to spend a bit more and support a local book company that's up to you but Amazon is undoubtedly a better experience than any other company I've seen (Specifically for relatively niche technical books, if it was a fiction book it's basically the same).

^ that isn't to say Amazon should he left to monopolize as they please, just that the nuance is easily missed.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#96

Post by dvtrn » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

tcbawo wrote: post #31

haltingproblem wrote: post #6

They thrive because people are lazy - both restaurant and their customers. Restaurants can make a concerted effort to ask regular clients to order from their own websites/apps but rarely do even when they can make an extra 10-15% after giving the customers 10% off. Customers are lazy because inspite of all the talk of supporting local, they are too hooked on click-click-click and ordered. The delivery apps have hundr…

I'm amazed that Chipotle hasn't packaged it's online ordering app and licensed it to other restaurants. I've never used such a streamlined, polished, and convenient way to make an order for pickup or delivery.

I’ve found Panera Bread’s online ordering system to also be a well crafted order flow. To your question, I wonder if the exact reason they don’t is because they view their order software as something that gives them a competitive edge in their specific cuisines markets.

Panera and Chipotle are about as far apart as you can get, sandwiches and soups versus burritos and burrito bowls yet where I see some alignment is how they both have amazing online ordering experiences which allow deep order customization that eschews a lot of friction in doing so. I can’t think of another large chain with similar order experience between the two (Edit: Potbelly, perhaps for sandwiches?)

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#97

Post by MattGaiser » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

tasty_freeze wrote: post #88

swiley wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah I feel like the “people shouldn’t profit from catastrophe” thing is a big part of why it’s still hard to get PPE (no one can justify extra manufacturing etc.)

You misunderstand the difference between profiting and profiteering. Nobody is claiming companies should sell toilet paper at cost, but they are saying toilet paper shouldn't get 5x more expensive.

But that constricts the supply because if you want to make a short term investment (the length of the pandemic) to increase the supply of home toilet paper, you can't as that investment can't generate a return. Most production is based on demand being there for 5+ years the current prices.

If home toilet paper demand will only be high for 2 years you can't make money.

You also want prices to increase to discourage hoarding. Otherwise what happens is that people with disposable income just strip the shelves because there is no possible downside to hoarding toilet paper. They can just not buy it later with no loss to themselves if the price is the same.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#98

Post by oneplane » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

blancNoir wrote: post #81

crazygringo wrote: post #74

This article is misguided, based on a false premise. Food delivery apps are not thriving, if thriving means making big profits. GrubHub's stock price isn't much different from where it was 5 years ago. UberEats isn't expected to turn a profit for another five years as they continue to lose money on every order. There are no monopolies here taking advantage of restauranteurs. There's an entire ecosystem of food delive…

from the article "While neither Uber nor Grubhub turns a profit delivering food, they are nonetheless venture-backed and raking in mountains of cash: Grubhub reported revenue of $362.98 million during the first quarter this year, a year-over-year increase of more than 12%. Uber Eats’ revenue surged 53% from the same quarter a year ago, to $819 million. Restaurants, meanwhile, are facing utter devastation. The restaur…

So they are comparing revenue with job loss? Those aren't the same class or the same measure... This is just pointless.

Focusing on jobs in the context of gains and losses is a bad idea in general as the only real measure you'd get regarding jobs is 'how many people can support themselves by working' which is the actual real-world impact. And if you want to take survival in to account or basic living standards you could even go a little more abstract and try to report on 'how many people are stuck in poverty'.

It doesn't matter how many jobs you have if people barely get by. Same goes for having less jobs: if people are still doing OK it's not as strong an indicator of anything to report job counts.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#99

Post by code_duck » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:25 PM UTC

ackbar03 wrote: post #48

Does anyone think these food delivery companies are ever going to go away? I mean the restaurants don't seem to like them, the delivery people are pissed, vcs are burning money, and through all this these huge companies are still having a trouble turning a profit. This doesn't seem to be working for anybody except maybe the consumer who is just currently subsidized directly and indirectly through all the above partie…

In Portland there are efforts from local businesses to form their own delivery consortiums, such as https://www.pdxccc.com/restaurants.html

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#100

Post by crazygringo » Sat, May 16, 2020, 4:26 PM UTC

blancNoir wrote: post #81

crazygringo wrote: post #74

This article is misguided, based on a false premise. Food delivery apps are not thriving, if thriving means making big profits. GrubHub's stock price isn't much different from where it was 5 years ago. UberEats isn't expected to turn a profit for another five years as they continue to lose money on every order. There are no monopolies here taking advantage of restauranteurs. There's an entire ecosystem of food delive…

from the article "While neither Uber nor Grubhub turns a profit delivering food, they are nonetheless venture-backed and raking in mountains of cash: Grubhub reported revenue of $362.98 million during the first quarter this year, a year-over-year increase of more than 12%. Uber Eats’ revenue surged 53% from the same quarter a year ago, to $819 million. Restaurants, meanwhile, are facing utter devastation. The restaur…

Right, but "raking in mountains of cash" is skipping the "in the face of even larger mountains of costs". That's why this article feels deceitful -- using words like "raking in" and "surging" as if revenue before costs means anything at all.

If you lose money on every order, you're not thriving in any sense. You're hoping to thrive some day in the future. The fact that they're venture-backed is irrelevant. Restaurants are backed by investors and bank loans too.