Live data from Hacker News

Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

latimes.com

71–80 of 290 posts

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#71
The author doesn't seem to have any ideas on how to help restaurants thrive too. A cap on Grubhub fees isn't going to save most restaurants. He just wants to bring the pain on food delivery apps too, which will improve the situation by... sympathetic magic?

I feel bad sniping at him, because I agree with the general principle that the economics of the restaurant industry are worse than they ought to be. But this genre of social reform take, "we must smash this business because it's doing well when others aren't", is just incredibly toxic.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#74
This article is misguided, based on a false premise. Food delivery apps are not thriving, if thriving means making big profits.

GrubHub's stock price isn't much different from where it was 5 years ago. UberEats isn't expected to turn a profit for another five years as they continue to lose money on every order.

There are no monopolies here taking advantage of restauranteurs. There's an entire ecosystem of food delivery apps competing with each other.

The reality of the situation is that delivering meals is extremely expensive. It doesn't have meaningful economies of scale the way package delivery does. Both restaurants and customers have to pay these huge delivery fees because that's just what delivery costs. (In fact, many are still being subsidized by massive VC.)

Running a restaurant is always a precarious business proposition in the first place. Adding delivery is another precarious choice -- you can massively increase revenue but only at the cost of massively decreasing profit percentage, and if you don't calculate exactly right it'll seem like a big waste-of-time wash in the end, or you'll even lose money. That's just how it works.

I have tons of sympathy for restaurant owners, but just because it's hard -- not because they're being taken advantage of, because they're not.

But laws that restrict the ability of food delivery apps to charge what the market will bear isn't going to solve anything. They don't have these extra profits lying around they can just moderately reduce. The inevitable result will be them dropping the restaurants that are least profitable for delivery entirely, and reducing deliverypeople so your food will take two or three times as long to deliver. That's just Econ 101 -- if your revenue is reduced to where there's no path to profit, you need to cut quality. End of story.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#75

They thrive because people are lazy - both restaurant and their customers. Restaurants can make a concerted effort to ask regular clients to order from their own websites/apps but rarely do even when they can make an extra 10-15% after giving the customers 10% off. Customers are lazy because inspite of all the talk of supporting local, they are too hooked on click-click-click and ordered. The delivery apps have hundr…

> payment processing (3%) + 2-3% overhead. Is that anywhere near enough to actually pay for a delivery? I have both the Dasher app and the DoorDash app. That delivery I pay $2.99 for leads to the Dasher often being offered $13 on a $30 order with a $4 tip.

Definitely not. But the problem is not that delivery realistically may cost $10-15 to pay for itself, it's that it's coming from the restaurant's margins and being hidden from the customer.

If the fees were real, the restaurant wouldn't need to care about pickup vs delivery, but the apps would lose some business because $15 is a good reason to do pickup.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#76
It feels a bit like reading about the industrial revolution, when masses of destitute workers were exploited by rich factory owners. Their salary was just barely enough to keep them alive and their work perfectly fungible: for any worker that decided the deal wasn't good enough there was a queue of others in wait.

Eventually the workers improved their condition through massive and coordinated strikes that entirely blocked the production and prevented anyone to replace them until their requests were met.

(On the other hand the fact that delivery apps are funded by VC money and don't turn profits either sounds even more ominous: does it mean that consumer spending is fuelled by debt and still not producing profit for anyone involved?)

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#77
post #54

> why should I'm not a huge fan of moralistic takes on business. If you're selling something dangerous then that's wrong, but it's very easy to be blinkered from a high position. If people want to buy food in a certain way I can't really blame them - arguably the same with Uber and taxis, Uber has disrupted an industry which was fairly uncompetitive and politically charged (Their prevalence indicates the customers ap…

Your take itself is a judgement. Does a company indulging in non-coerced commerce (i.e. voluntary) make it virtuous? Why is questioning the efficacy, for society, of the economic models of any company considered immoral?

Capitalist enterprises are neither immoral (left) nor moral (right). They just happen to be the most efficient - read easy to cobble together. It does not mean they are the best outcome for society.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#78

They thrive because people are lazy - both restaurant and their customers. Restaurants can make a concerted effort to ask regular clients to order from their own websites/apps but rarely do even when they can make an extra 10-15% after giving the customers 10% off. Customers are lazy because inspite of all the talk of supporting local, they are too hooked on click-click-click and ordered. The delivery apps have hundr…

Restaurants are a lot of things. But lazy is not one of them. Have you ever worked at a restaurant?

I think you may be conflating the cooks, waitresses etc. who are certainly not lazy, with the management who tend to be lazy and set in their old ways, not willing to innovate unless absolutely forced to. I suspect the OP had the latter category in mind.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#79

They thrive because people are lazy - both restaurant and their customers. Restaurants can make a concerted effort to ask regular clients to order from their own websites/apps but rarely do even when they can make an extra 10-15% after giving the customers 10% off. Customers are lazy because inspite of all the talk of supporting local, they are too hooked on click-click-click and ordered. The delivery apps have hundr…

Restaurants are a lot of things. But lazy is not one of them. Have you ever worked at a restaurant?

I think they in the parent comment means customers.

Re: Our restaurants are failing. Why should food delivery apps thrive?

#80
post #58

People appear to be forgetting how horrible food delivery was pre-UberEats/DoorDash et al. It was horrible and the food was always cold. Once they started doing food delivery it was a game changer. My food arrived hot enough that I had to wait sometimes but almost always pleasantly warm. To me, it’s worth paying the fees, especially since I don’t have to spend time going out, waiting, driving back. When I go for In’n…

I worked at a pizza place in the early to mid 90s in the suburbs of Chicago. The place ran its own delivery service. The service was fantastic, pizzas delivered piping hot most of the times. It wasn’t very hard for the restaurant to set up and operate the service. 15 year old me understood it pretty well. That said I think where these delivery services have come in is at places that historically didn’t have their own…

Yes, pizza places had it figured out. Everyone else, not so much. And on Uber Eats or many of their competitors you can order pancakes with coffee, burgers, traditional food, Georgian, whatever.

In Poland, Pyszne.pl is usually better and offers a wider selection than Uber Eats. The delivery is often provided by the restaurant itself, just like you suggest. In fact, I made two orders from Uber Eats today and both are delivered by the restaurant. But even then the intermediary keeps them honest with reviews and access to the platform. It's not pure rent seeking.

Before that, these platforms do a lot of promotion, marketing, and allow for easy discovery. They have greatly expanded the market. Just like Uber did for taxis.

Post reply on HN