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Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

torrentfreak.com

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Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#21
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that once local politics - remember it isn't cops that seize property it's DAs - kicks in then laws which are only for use against terrorists/makejor drugs dealers/organised crime can be used against ordinary people. And given the population sizes of terrorists/drug dealers/etc compared to ordinary people - they are almsot always used against ordinary people

Cite evidence for that last sentence. It is an extraordinary claim: that law enforcement is in fact a massive criminal conspiracy used to defraud ordinary people of their lawful property.

In the UK 'Regulatory Investigative Powers' RIP was introduced to catch terrorists and international drug dealers. It allows government to get pretty much unlimited snooping ability on phones, web visits, cell phone location etc.

Within a year the majority of RIP requests were from local city councils famously investigating cases of dog crap and people giving a false address to get kids into better schools.

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#22
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd more likely suspect malice disguised as incompetence. I wouldn't doubt FACT has an unwritten policy of this. They're an anti-piracy organization and they had the computers of a bit-torrent tracker, of course they have an incentive to trash the machines.

I'd have thought that the incentive would be not to trash the machines as doing so makes them look like extrajudicial thugs when they claim to be on the side of the law.

As an institution, law enforcement seldom worries about whether its actions might look thuggish to others. And antipiracy organizations are explicitly about pounding down David at the behest of Goliath (regardless of your political opinions, the pirates are unquestionably poorer and have less political might than most copyright litigators), so I doubt they'd be more concerned than the average.

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#23
post #13
post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the US if the authorities use civil forfeiture they can keep your property even when you aren't even charged with a crime and there is little you can do to get it back. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asset_forfeiture It is generally used in organized crime and drug cases but has expanded greatly in recent years. It is now routinely used to seize cars in DUI cases. They can and do legally keep the property without ev…

Alarmist. Civil asset forfeiture is not carte blanche for local and state governments to take property. There is an elaborate due process system surrounding it. The often-cited statistics about how few forfeiture cases are accompanied by criminal convictions are obviously and clearly biased: much crime goes unpunished, and if you are in fact running drugs (the nexus of the vast and overwhelming majority of forfeiture…

It's only alarmist when it isn't happening to you or someone you love. It happened to my nephew, several thousand dollars in cash seized from his college dorm room (he was a bartender, but should it matter? it isn't illegal to have cash is it?), no charges filed and it would have cost him more than they seized to attempt to get it returned. Back in the 80s, when I was in high school they seized a local family's home because someone said they bought acid from a boy who lived there. It made big news back then, this stuff was new. The family lost the legal battle, they couldn't prove they didn't know their kid was selling acid. The authorities couldn't prove he was selling acid either, but that doesn't matter in these cases. To have your property returned, you must prove you are innocent or ignorant which are both almost impossible things to prove.

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#24
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Cite evidence for that last sentence. It is an extraordinary claim: that law enforcement is in fact a massive criminal conspiracy used to defraud ordinary people of their lawful property.

In the UK 'Regulatory Investigative Powers' RIP was introduced to catch terrorists and international drug dealers. It allows government to get pretty much unlimited snooping ability on phones, web visits, cell phone location etc. Within a year the majority of RIP requests were from local city councils famously investigating cases of dog crap and people giving a false address to get kids into better schools.

That is certainly an interesting and uncited fact, but it hardly qualifies as evidence that forfeiture laws are almost always used against ordinary people.

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#25
post #23
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Alarmist. Civil asset forfeiture is not carte blanche for local and state governments to take property. There is an elaborate due process system surrounding it. The often-cited statistics about how few forfeiture cases are accompanied by criminal convictions are obviously and clearly biased: much crime goes unpunished, and if you are in fact running drugs (the nexus of the vast and overwhelming majority of forfeiture…

It's only alarmist when it isn't happening to you or someone you love. It happened to my nephew, several thousand dollars in cash seized from his college dorm room (he was a bartender, but should it matter? it isn't illegal to have cash is it?), no charges filed and it would have cost him more than they seized to attempt to get it returned. Back in the 80s, when I was in high school they seized a local family's home…

Why would it cost him significantly to have it returned? According to US code, a single note is all it takes to force a court procedure where the prosecutor has to demonstrate a nexus between the money and a crime. What would it cost your brother to go to court by himself? What would he have to lose?

Look, I see the issue here. Clearly, if the government was randomly taking thousands of dollars from people and forcing them to go to court to keep it, that would be a miscarriage of justice. But that's probably not what happens in reality.

Under what auspices was your nephew's cash seized? What's the other side of this story? Is there really not another side to this story?

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#26
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EDIT: I just realized that this case was in the UK. I don't know how much of what I'm about to say applies to their judicial system, but I'm going to leave it here anyway for those familiar with the UK to comment on. I did computer forensic work for the US Trustee system. Chain of evidence and the whole deal, because occasionally, our evidence would be handed over to law enforcement and used in criminal cases. I can…

> * If the systems are turned on, record the datetime and shut them down. Did this ever lock you out of any machines configured to use Whole Disk Encryption or out of encrypted, mounted volumes? You could have dumped the keys out of ram, etc. > we used EnCase Did you ever come across any exotic filesystems that EnCase can't read, like XFS?

> Did this ever lock you out of any machines configured to use Whole Disk Encryption or out of encrypted, mounted volumes? You could have dumped the keys out of ram, etc.

At the firm I worked for, preservation was priority #1 any time we were walking in to a case with high trial-risk. In order to discover that the system was encrypted, I would have to use the computer. Using the computer means changing it. Protocol was really straight forward: If it's running, shut it down and get it to the lab.

Because we were working in the US Trustee system, we were dealing with business owners who were either in bankruptcy where a trustee had been appointed, or receiverships, which almost always involves a trustee (or like appointee). This means we weren't chasing kiddie porn, we were looking for the movement of money. Were we to encounter end-to-end encryption, the password is just a "motion to compel" order away. Failure to comply means you sit in a jail cell until you cough up the password.

Having said that, I don't recall ever having to go that far. Neither did we encounter any seriously hardened systems. Anyone smart enough to encrypt a system end-to-end at a company was usually on our side by the time we got there. In large businesses where this type of encryption is common, there is an IT person who can get past it. Bad business people have a tendency to make enemies out of their employees, and the trustee knew who to take care of.

In instances where we didn't have access to employees with the required knowledge to get in to systems, we relied on industry tools. We were mostly trying to crack in to things like QuickBooks files, Outlook PSTs, and protected documents, so not what you'd normally expect from a geek perspective (john, l0pht, etc). A lot of the stuff was proprietary, and at the end of the day, brute force and dictionary attacks were usually very effective.

We rarely encountered disk-level encryption on the systems we examined. App and document level passwords were the norm. I used to run the disk images through STRINGS(1) to extract every bit of text on the drive. Then, I'd break whitespace to newlines and use that as my dictionary. When you have three or four computers worth of strings, coupled with relatively unsophisticated users, you don't often strike out. We had a 100% success rate using standard crackers and the technique outlined above. It seems that users can't resist typing their password in plain text at some point in the life of their computer.

> Did you ever come across any exotic filesystems that EnCase can't read, like XFS?

I don't think I ever examined a computer that wasn't Windows XP. These were strictly business cases, so anything that wasn't Windows was a server, and that was a very rare case. Most of the time, we got approval to simply run the server systems in question to get the data we needed. The rules of engagement with servers were a little different. Servers involve a lot of multi-user access, so the chain of evidence requirements were a little different. We had to be the most careful with the personal workstations of the owners and accountants. I'd find emails requesting off-shore accounts, shell companies, etc. These had to be bulletproof in order to pin down the business owner.

I can't stress enough that I operated in a non-criminal, largely unsophisticated environment. Our rules for preservation were mostly precautionary. There was very little trial risk in our organization. It was mostly a matter of trying to identify assets and dig up any evidence that the owner was acting in a way that would put them in hot water. The trustee would use these items to squeeze the debtor in an effort to repay lenders.

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#27
post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> * If the systems are turned on, record the datetime and shut them down. Did this ever lock you out of any machines configured to use Whole Disk Encryption or out of encrypted, mounted volumes? You could have dumped the keys out of ram, etc. > we used EnCase Did you ever come across any exotic filesystems that EnCase can't read, like XFS?

> Did this ever lock you out of any machines configured to use Whole Disk Encryption or out of encrypted, mounted volumes? You could have dumped the keys out of ram, etc. At the firm I worked for, preservation was priority #1 any time we were walking in to a case with high trial-risk. In order to discover that the system was encrypted, I would have to use the computer. Using the computer means changing it. Protocol w…

> Failure to comply means you sit in a jail cell until you cough up the password.

So, keyfiles on easily-destroyable thumbdrives, then? If they say the only copy of the key (that they're aware of) was destroyed, that's basically equivalent to saying they wiped the disk; you can't really hold them expecting them to magically recreate it, right?

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#28
post #25
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's only alarmist when it isn't happening to you or someone you love. It happened to my nephew, several thousand dollars in cash seized from his college dorm room (he was a bartender, but should it matter? it isn't illegal to have cash is it?), no charges filed and it would have cost him more than they seized to attempt to get it returned. Back in the 80s, when I was in high school they seized a local family's home…

Why would it cost him significantly to have it returned? According to US code, a single note is all it takes to force a court procedure where the prosecutor has to demonstrate a nexus between the money and a crime. What would it cost your brother to go to court by himself? What would he have to lose? Look, I see the issue here. Clearly, if the government was randomly taking thousands of dollars from people and forcin…

There is. A kid left the frat and drowned in a river (it was a frat room not a dorm room). Drugs were suspected. I'm not sure why. They executed a warrant and took the money. BTW the autopsy found no drugs in the dead student's system.

Anyway, you make this sound so simple, just send a note and go to court. Most people are extremely intimidated by this stuff and they just want it to end. Especially when you've already been violated and had your reputation impugned. The advice they were given was it wasn't worth it.

Asset forfeiture is a serious problem. http://www.aclu.org/blog/racial-justice/easy-money-civil-ass...

"In 80 percent of such cases, the owner is not charged. The standard of proof to be met by the authorities is the minimal "probable cause" standard. If the owner wishes to regain possession, he has the onus of proving in court that the property is "innocent"; his standard of proof is higher: a preponderance of the evidence. In some cases, property has been seized for acts someone other than the owner performed." http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/pr-ma-hy.html

edit: I doubt they are doing this randomly, but they seem to be opportunistic and they do target certain types of people - youth, poor, minorities. The right to seize valuable assets is corrupting in nature. I think you'd see it drop dramatically if the government wasn't allowed to keep the assets as a fund raising mechanism.

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#29
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My point is that once local politics - remember it isn't cops that seize property it's DAs - kicks in then laws which are only for use against terrorists/makejor drugs dealers/organised crime can be used against ordinary people. And given the population sizes of terrorists/drug dealers/etc compared to ordinary people - they are almsot always used against ordinary people

Cite evidence for that last sentence. It is an extraordinary claim: that law enforcement is in fact a massive criminal conspiracy used to defraud ordinary people of their lawful property.

He didn't make that claim. He claimed that the asset forfeiture laws are almost always used against "ordinary people," whom he distinguishes from "drug dealers/terrorists/etc."

Re: Police Return Seized Hardware to Victorious BitTorrent Admin, Trashed

#30
post #28
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would it cost him significantly to have it returned? According to US code, a single note is all it takes to force a court procedure where the prosecutor has to demonstrate a nexus between the money and a crime. What would it cost your brother to go to court by himself? What would he have to lose? Look, I see the issue here. Clearly, if the government was randomly taking thousands of dollars from people and forcin…

There is. A kid left the frat and drowned in a river (it was a frat room not a dorm room). Drugs were suspected. I'm not sure why. They executed a warrant and took the money. BTW the autopsy found no drugs in the dead student's system. Anyway, you make this sound so simple, just send a note and go to court. Most people are extremely intimidated by this stuff and they just want it to end. Especially when you've alread…

Again: that 80% stat? I'm certain it's true, but it's meaningless. The stat you want is, how often are challenges to seizures denied. Because --- and I'm not saying this is what happened with your nephew --- it is very likely the reason that 80% of those seizures don't match up with a conviction is that the people whose assets are seized are in fact criminals.

Recognizing that doesn't mean I think civil asset forfeiture is problem-free or that Radley Balko doesn't have an argument with his stories on this issue. But you can't just cite that stat as if it opened and shut the case.

I agree that one sensible step to take would be to foreclose on the use of the assets as local funding mechanisms. I agree entirely with that.

Finally: I think your nephew was given bad advice.

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