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Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

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Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#81

Post by dimator »

mrkramer wrote: post #54
pge wrote: post #20

This is interesting because it seems like the DOJ's definition of monopoly is changing, which I think is a good thing. Since the late 80s (roughly), antitrust litigation has only been brought on the basis of a monopoly's negative impact on consumer prices (i.e. does the existence of a monopoly cause the consumer to have to pay higher prices?). That ignores monopolies that impair the ability of smaller companies to en…

Google's dominant market position was achieved through market competition not through impairing the ability of smaller companies to enter markets. Even in Google Chrome you can pick DuckDuckGo and Ecosia as your default search engine. Most of Chrome users probably never heard of those two search engines. For example would YouTube be successful as it is today if it wasn't Google's resources and knowledge to skyrocket…

There's some truth to this. For many years, Google allows users the ability to wholesale export all of their data (perhaps as a defense for this moment in time).

If the consumer market wanted an alternative, wouldn't there be competing companies by now that would ingest all that data and give you matching mail, docs, video, etc, services?

On the advertising front, Google is no longer the only game in town, so by definition not a monopoly.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#82

Post by onetimemanytime »

akersten wrote: post #23

I will continue to believe that this is another tentacle of William Barr's political harassment of Google and tech in general until he leads the same crusade against other 'monopolies' of the same degree like Comcast, Apple, Boeing, Amazon, United Airlines, etc.

Google has done a lot of harm to websites strictly to force people to advertise. I cannot "prove" it but, I, and god knows how many sites know it to be true. They went from sending people to the best match to keeping them in Google's circle.

(Matt Cutts, you were the enabler. Your money and reputation is tainted)

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#83

Post by _-david-_ »

pb7 wrote: post #43
xoxoy wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

how is banking a monopoly? or Disney?

How is Google or Amazon or Facebook a monopoly?

Google has an estimate 88% of the search market share in the US. (Its higher world wide if it matters.) Many people consider that to be getting into monopoly territory.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#84

Post by SamReidHughes »

eshamukhamedov wrote: post #24
ghastmaster wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ever wonder why innovation takes place? Wonder why we are not still reliant on locomotives for transportation? Economic incentives for innovation and disruption are greater when a monopolistic entity is over charging for it's good or service. If they are not over charging then there is not as great an incentive to innovate or disrupt. If the latter is the case, why bust a monopoly that is providing a fair service?

> Economic incentives for innovation and disruption are greater when a monopolistic entity is over charging for it's good or service. Care to back that up, or are we supposed to take your, frankly, very unorthodox views at face value? Every industry I can think of with entrenched monopolies sees almost no innovation until things get so bad that they are finally disrupted: aerospace, energy, advertisement, telecommuni…

Amazon doesn’t really “have” a monopoly. Walmart just can’t compete online, but it’s because they suck, not because of a structural force stopping them.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#85

Post by gwright »

akersten wrote: post #45
iateanapple wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are any of those companies (except Amazon) even in the same league in terms of negative impact as big tech?

I mean, your choices for flying somewhere are what - Delta or United? Some small regional carriers? What about for internet service - just a single ISP in most areas. Sometimes a monopoly by law, where no one else can lay fiber and they're free to charge as much as they want. Your choices for searching something on the internet, hosting a video, doing email, etc. are innumerable. So you'll have to qualify what you me…

I don't think transportation is a good analogue because it is very easy to make substitutions. There are lots of ways to get from point A to point B with no single entity blocking your path.

How many ways are there to publish a mobile app, for example?

I generally describe myself as libertarian but I'm struggling to have a laissez-faire attitude about some aspects of big tech. I think the most frustrating thing is the lack of "due process" in the way that big tech deals with customers. Look at the recent story about the ridiculous review process for Chrome extensions. I could tell similar stories about the app stores.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#86

Post by jaydz »

xoxoy wrote: post #52
pb7 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Google or Amazon or Facebook a monopoly?

The antitrust lawsuit is focused on Google’s dominance of search. The specific question is whether Google has a monopoly on search. I think the case is pretty strong that it does.

Why is it dominant? Is Google is preventing competition from entering the market or is it because Google offers the superior product? Good luck with that in court.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#87

Post by elliekelly »

mrkramer wrote: post #54
pge wrote: post #20

This is interesting because it seems like the DOJ's definition of monopoly is changing, which I think is a good thing. Since the late 80s (roughly), antitrust litigation has only been brought on the basis of a monopoly's negative impact on consumer prices (i.e. does the existence of a monopoly cause the consumer to have to pay higher prices?). That ignores monopolies that impair the ability of smaller companies to en…

Google's dominant market position was achieved through market competition not through impairing the ability of smaller companies to enter markets. Even in Google Chrome you can pick DuckDuckGo and Ecosia as your default search engine. Most of Chrome users probably never heard of those two search engines. For example would YouTube be successful as it is today if it wasn't Google's resources and knowledge to skyrocket…

> Even in Google Chrome you can pick DuckDuckGo and Ecosia as your default search engine.

And making this argument is exactly why they added search engine selection. They wanted to be able to point to this tiny insignificant detail that might cost them a negligible fraction of Chrome searches and hold it up as market competition when the inevitable antitrust suit came along.

Have you ever heard of a for profit company gifting traffic to their direct competitor? It would be irrational behavior in a competitive market. If anything this is evidence of Google’s search engine monopoly and Google built the selection feature into Chrome it in furtherance of that monopoly power.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#88

Post by dimator »

xoxoy wrote: post #52
pb7 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Google or Amazon or Facebook a monopoly?

The antitrust lawsuit is focused on Google’s dominance of search. The specific question is whether Google has a monopoly on search. I think the case is pretty strong that it does.

How though? It's trivially simple to change the default search engine. Just because a product is dominant doesn't mean it got that way nefariously. I'm sure if you added up all the R&D over the years in search, especially considering the lead time in market, Google's numbers dwarf others (I don't have a citation on that, but it stands to reason).

Parallels could be drawn with Amazon and AWS's dominance.

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#89

Post by riazrizvi »

mrkramer wrote: post #54
pge wrote: post #20

This is interesting because it seems like the DOJ's definition of monopoly is changing, which I think is a good thing. Since the late 80s (roughly), antitrust litigation has only been brought on the basis of a monopoly's negative impact on consumer prices (i.e. does the existence of a monopoly cause the consumer to have to pay higher prices?). That ignores monopolies that impair the ability of smaller companies to en…

Google's dominant market position was achieved through market competition not through impairing the ability of smaller companies to enter markets. Even in Google Chrome you can pick DuckDuckGo and Ecosia as your default search engine. Most of Chrome users probably never heard of those two search engines. For example would YouTube be successful as it is today if it wasn't Google's resources and knowledge to skyrocket…

Below is a link to a list of mergers and acquisitions by Google over the last twenty years, many of them were search engines and online portals. This is the type of thing that the Antitrust Laws were meant to prevent. However laws are only as good as the government's willingness to exercise them. Hopefully this signals the end of the second Gilded Age, and a return to the creative destruction that has made the USA's economy the strongest in the world for almost a century.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mergers_and_acquisitio...

Re: Justice Department, states likely to bring antitrust lawsuits against Google

#90

Post by AnimalMuppet »

akersten wrote: post #45
iateanapple wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are any of those companies (except Amazon) even in the same league in terms of negative impact as big tech?

I mean, your choices for flying somewhere are what - Delta or United? Some small regional carriers? What about for internet service - just a single ISP in most areas. Sometimes a monopoly by law, where no one else can lay fiber and they're free to charge as much as they want. Your choices for searching something on the internet, hosting a video, doing email, etc. are innumerable. So you'll have to qualify what you me…

Both American Airlines and Southwest Airlines would like a word with you.

The definition of a monopoly isn't "really big". It's not even "the biggest of four major companies".

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