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Pay Teachers More

nytimes.com

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Re: Pay Teachers More

#51

Post by bugsy »

akashs wrote: post #31
bugsy wrote: post #8

Numerous studies show that education majors is the US have among the lowest composite ACT and LSAT scores of any major. http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2006/02/ranking-sc... There have been various explanation for this phenomenon which started in the 1970s and grew since then. Among the most interesting hypotheses is that traditionally smart women went into teaching as one of the few careers available to wo…

Why would you expect people who want to be teachers to do well on an admissions test for law school? Engineers do almost as poorly on the GRE Verbal, but does that mean they're idiots? I understand the LSAT has little to do with law, but just think of the selection bias of people in that bucket.

That particular one has LSAT, GMAT, and GRE scores, it's a grad school study. There are also ACT and SAT studies that support it as well. I merely wanted to call attention to this data, take it for what it is.

http://www2.ed.gov/admins/tchrqual/learn/preparingteachersco...

"[C]ollege students majoring in education have lower SAT and ACT scores than students majoring in the arts and sciences. For example, among college graduates who majored in education, 14% had SAT or ACT scores in the top quartile, compared to 26% who majored in the social sciences, compared to 37% who majored mathematics/computer science/natural science. In addition, those who did not prepare to teach but became teachers were much more likely to have scored in the top quartile (35 percent) than those who prepared to teach and became teachers (14 percent) (NCES, 2001)."

He is there referencing pg 69 of "National Center for Education Statistics (2001). The Condition of Education, 2001. Washington, DC: US Department of Education" found at http://nces.ed.gov/pubs2001/2001072.pdf where you can see on the chart that education majors are more likely to be in the bottom quartile of academically qualified students than any other field of study listed. You also see there is a massive difference between those who teach who majored in education and those who teach who did not major in education. Teachers who majored in education are 27% likely to be in the bottom quartile compared to those who didn't major in education, at 20%. And as previously cited, 35% of the non-education majors who end up teaching are from the top quartile whereas only 14% of teachers who majored in education are from the top quartile academically. You can also see in the chart that the more academically qualified one is, the more likely they are to abandon teaching as a career.

I assert that this is all relevant and leave it to the curious reader to figure for themselves why this might be so.

Re: Pay Teachers More

#52

Post by [deleted] »

akashs wrote: post #31
bugsy wrote: post #8

Numerous studies show that education majors is the US have among the lowest composite ACT and LSAT scores of any major. http://politicalcalculations.blogspot.com/2006/02/ranking-sc... There have been various explanation for this phenomenon which started in the 1970s and grew since then. Among the most interesting hypotheses is that traditionally smart women went into teaching as one of the few careers available to wo…

Why would you expect people who want to be teachers to do well on an admissions test for law school? Engineers do almost as poorly on the GRE Verbal, but does that mean they're idiots? I understand the LSAT has little to do with law, but just think of the selection bias of people in that bucket.

[deleted]

Re: Pay Teachers More

#53

Post by [deleted] »

bugsy wrote: post #51
akashs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you expect people who want to be teachers to do well on an admissions test for law school? Engineers do almost as poorly on the GRE Verbal, but does that mean they're idiots? I understand the LSAT has little to do with law, but just think of the selection bias of people in that bucket.

That particular one has LSAT, GMAT, and GRE scores, it's a grad school study. There are also ACT and SAT studies that support it as well. I merely wanted to call attention to this data, take it for what it is. http://www2.ed.gov/admins/tchrqual/learn/preparingteachersco... "[C]ollege students majoring in education have lower SAT and ACT scores than students majoring in the arts and sciences. For example, among colleg…

[deleted]

Re: Pay Teachers More

#54

Post by [deleted] »

[deleted] wrote: post #52
akashs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you expect people who want to be teachers to do well on an admissions test for law school? Engineers do almost as poorly on the GRE Verbal, but does that mean they're idiots? I understand the LSAT has little to do with law, but just think of the selection bias of people in that bucket.

[deleted]

[deleted]

Re: Pay Teachers More

#55

Post by [deleted] »

bugsy wrote: post #51
akashs wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would you expect people who want to be teachers to do well on an admissions test for law school? Engineers do almost as poorly on the GRE Verbal, but does that mean they're idiots? I understand the LSAT has little to do with law, but just think of the selection bias of people in that bucket.

That particular one has LSAT, GMAT, and GRE scores, it's a grad school study. There are also ACT and SAT studies that support it as well. I merely wanted to call attention to this data, take it for what it is. http://www2.ed.gov/admins/tchrqual/learn/preparingteachersco... "[C]ollege students majoring in education have lower SAT and ACT scores than students majoring in the arts and sciences. For example, among colleg…

[deleted]

Re: Pay Teachers More

#56

Post by maxharris »

defen wrote: post #41
pmorici wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're kidding right? College students in particular are always trying to get into sections of classes taught by professors they know are good either through first hand experience or word of mouth recommendation.

College is so different from primary school that your stated objection is completely irrelevant. Students at the vast majority of US primary schools do not get to choose what material they learn, or who teaches it to them.

Don't you think this is a problem, at least for some students?

It was for me. I was an awful student all the way through high school (graduated with something around a D average). I blossomed in college with a near-perfect GPA in a natural science major. (What I had to go through to get into the university I did is another story, and beside the point.) The important difference between these two environments is that I wasn't a prisoner at the university.

I have never accepted authority that I thought was unjust ("Who are you to tell me that you know what's better for me than I do?"), and that's exactly how I viewed my education before college. Granted, there are sensible limitations (mostly related to safety) on how far children can be left to their own devices, but all I ever wanted as a child was to spring from my daily prison and do something that I knew was worthwhile.

Re: Pay Teachers More

#57

Post by Anechoic »

yummyfajitas wrote: post #46
Anechoic wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are these data averaged across the entire year (including summers)? The summary is not clear about that, although it does include data from summer interviews. If it is averaged across summers, you can have a teacher working 50 hrs/wk during the school year, 0 hours during the summer and have the average come out to less than 40.

From the third paragraph of the article I linked to: With the exception of chart 1, all estimates presented are restricted to persons who were employed during the week prior to their interview and who did some work during that period. Thus, a teacher who was on summer or semester break during the week of the survey is not included in this analysis. A great way to answer questions about an article someone cites is to…

I had read the article and read that section, but it doesn't answer my question - all that says is that teachers on break weren't included in the study, that doesn't say whether or not the data taken from the teachers included in the study were averaged across a (working or school) year just across the interviewees.

But thank you for your respectful response.

Re: Pay Teachers More

#58

Post by maxharris »

dangoldin wrote: post #32
maratd wrote: post #16

Let's try a thought exercise. If we pay engineers more, we'll get safer buildings. If we pay police officers more, we'll get safer streets. If we pay doctors more, we'll get better care. You see how this works? More pay attracts higher quality individuals, but it's a zero sum game. Those people are coming from some other industry. So if you'll pay teachers more, you'll have a lower quality of service elsewhere. That…

What about the future generations of doctors who had poor teachers and won't make good doctors? I don't think it's a zero sum game - the world changes and different skills are required at different points. New industries are constantly born that require a whole new set of people. The population of the world is always in flux as well - does that mean every additional person has to split the limited resources? I think…

What about the future generations of doctors who had poor teachers and won't make good doctors?

Teachers are not the only source of drive or inspiration to learn. Michael Faraday had almost no formal education (and he came from a poor family), yet he rose to become one of the most influential scientists in history.

[He was apprenticed to a bookbinder, which allowed him to read a lot. His interest in science was inspired by a book (https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Michael_Farad...), not a teacher!]

Re: Pay Teachers More

#59

Post by [deleted] »

Anechoic wrote: post #57
yummyfajitas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the third paragraph of the article I linked to: With the exception of chart 1, all estimates presented are restricted to persons who were employed during the week prior to their interview and who did some work during that period. Thus, a teacher who was on summer or semester break during the week of the survey is not included in this analysis. A great way to answer questions about an article someone cites is to…

I had read the article and read that section, but it doesn't answer my question - all that says is that teachers on break weren't included in the study, that doesn't say whether or not the data taken from the teachers included in the study were averaged across a (working or school) year just across the interviewees. But thank you for your respectful response.

[deleted]

Re: Pay Teachers More

#60

Post by yummyfajitas »

Anechoic wrote: post #57
yummyfajitas wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From the third paragraph of the article I linked to: With the exception of chart 1, all estimates presented are restricted to persons who were employed during the week prior to their interview and who did some work during that period. Thus, a teacher who was on summer or semester break during the week of the survey is not included in this analysis. A great way to answer questions about an article someone cites is to…

I had read the article and read that section, but it doesn't answer my question - all that says is that teachers on break weren't included in the study, that doesn't say whether or not the data taken from the teachers included in the study were averaged across a (working or school) year just across the interviewees. But thank you for your respectful response.

From the second paragraph: In the ATUS, interviewers collect data in a time diary format, in which survey participants provide information about "yesterday."

So no, they didn't include data from summer vacation (except for Table 1).

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