Zoom fatigue is real • Hacker News Board

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#51

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:51 PM UTC

Junk_Collector wrote: post #43

bentcorner wrote: post #37

FYI, if you have an NVIDIA card on your machine, you can run their voice filtering software: https://www.nvidia.com/en-us/geforce/guides/nvidia-rtx-voice... It works for non-RTX cards as well with some tweaking ( https://arstechnica.com/?post_type=post&p=1670164 ). Works marvelously for removing background noise - mic hum, typing, cars driving by. One of the nice things about it is that you can also filter the output…

You would think this sort of functionality would be implemented in sound cards but I can't think of any significant advancement in audio processing in years.

Aw man, I'm quite often found wanting audio compression - narrowing of the difference in loudness of sound output - but neither Win10 nor Kubuntu seem to be able to do this ootb.

It would be really good to have on a TV too (no more super-loud explosions interspersed with barely audible speech), and I'm amazed that YouTube seemingly doesn't normalise sound levels at all.

As a relatively new Win10 user I find access to mic levels being buried in device manager to be crazy. Also, not having a default output mix, apparently ...

At least games seem to offer a good range of sound settings.

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#52

Post by kilroy123 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:55 PM UTC

blaser-waffle wrote: post #42

replyifuagree wrote: post #29

I telecommuted for years and almost never used a webcam. A shared desktop has way more potential for something really interesting and valuable being displayed. Watching hoards of people hop on webcams to transmit choppy video information about their face and home seems like wasted bandwidth to me. Edit: addendum, get a headset, transmitting voice clearly with some decent noise cancellation is really important. I buy…

Been remote for ~6 years now. I've used my camera maybe a dozen times, tops, during that time. +1 for investing in a good headset. Get something that completely covers the ears, and/or has some noise cancelling. I bought a Logitech gaming headset with a good mic and it's made a BIG difference, esp. on days where I'm on 4+ hours for calls.

Same here, remote for ~6 years. Only used the camera a dozen times.

I find it awkward and stressful being on the camera all the time.

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#53

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:56 PM UTC

thrower123 wrote: post #38

mseidl wrote: post #12

Am I the only one that really hates being on webcam?

I don't really get the point of keeping video open. I'm always either looking at emails, a shared desktop, an issue tracker, or some kind of document while we are on calls. Seeing people sip coffee and pick their nose doesn't really add anything except bandwidth.

If someone is presenting it's useful to be able to gauge how well it's going, whether people are paying attention, if they're bored, etc..

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#54

Post by wintermutestwin » Thu, May 14, 2020, 3:57 PM UTC

ginko wrote: post #30

tootie wrote: post #16

As someone who has worked with remote teams for years and has spent many, many hours in Zooms and the like, my advice is to get used to it because it's great. I used to dread conference calls. I can't stand listening to a room where I can't see faces. I never know what people are thinking. What I really can't understand is the people who hate turning on their cameras yet will greet me with a smile and a handshake in…

>What's the difference between a camera and being in person? You can make eye contact.

That's a great point. I think a lot of this "fatigue" is due to the huge eye contact problem most video setups have. I have solved it by having a secondary monitor and camera placed far enough back, but your typical laptop camera user can't do this...

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#55

Post by pbhjpbhj » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:00 PM UTC

lincolnbryant wrote: post #7

abdullahkhalids wrote: post #3

What do people think of "equalizing" your voice for these online meetings? Reducing the higher frequencies in favor of lower ones. Any tools on linux that can do this?

Not a linux user, but a decent external mic or headset is going to make the most difference here, its largely a factor of the tiny internal mics in laptops. They will also do better with sound insulation, internal are not well insulated from the fan, keyboard etc.

Tone changes can help with audibility. I have a really low voice, it doesn't carry well over voice-chat; I'd push my register up a few notes. But yes, filtering tweety mic sounds from other people would be good too.

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#56

Post by jsherwani » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:08 PM UTC

If the theory is correct, Zoom fatigue exists because videoconferencing is a worse experience than in-person conversations. Media quality, latency, the inability to use most of our motor/sensory apparatus, all contribute to micro-frustrations which accumulate over the course of a meeting.

On the other hand, screen sharing with interactive control when working together on a shared task is actually better than sitting next to someone on their computer. In person, I can only talk and point at their screen. With interactive screen sharing, I can click, type, and even draw live on their screen.

I spend hours a day in interactive screen share sessions (quasi-pair programming but not really) and never feel the effects of Zoom fatigue. But when I have to use a product without the ability to easily draw or interact, or have a meeting where it’s just about faces in boxes, I immediately feel extra “drag”.

I’m curious to hear if anyone else has had the same experience.

If this is correct, there may be a way to sidestep the issues of Zoom fatigue with better tools and processes (e.g. don’t talk about work, instead do the work together).

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#57

Post by wintermutestwin » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:12 PM UTC

All of these video fatigue articles ignore the eye contact problem. From a paper I wrote on mediating over video:

The most important element of body language is eye contact. “Gaze is vital in the flow of natural communication, monitoring of feedback, regulating turn taking, and punctuating emotion. The lack of eye contact shows timidity, embarrassment, shyness, uncertainty and social awkwardness. (Edelmann and Hampson [1]).” Having a camera on top of a monitor creates the appearance that participants are looking down. If you do look up into the camera, you aren’t looking at the other participant’s faces! Our minds are programmed to interpret looking down as gaze avoidance. Seeing someone look down makes them seem disinterested or even dishonest.

It is a hard problem to solve. I set up a studio in my office where I have a second monitor and external camera back far enough away so it works. I have looked for solutions and they are generally inaccessible. Room sized immersive systems from Cisco, etc solve it, but they are too expensive for the plebs. I have seen some goofy hacks using see through mirrors and video prompters. There are some productized versions of that but they all seemed to fail. The latest apple phones use ARKit to solve it by manipulating your video, but I have only read about it as a beta feature for facetime.

There is probably some money to be made here, but the gating factor is general awareness of this gaping hole...

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#58

Post by orev » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:14 PM UTC

replyifuagree wrote: post #29

I telecommuted for years and almost never used a webcam. A shared desktop has way more potential for something really interesting and valuable being displayed. Watching hoards of people hop on webcams to transmit choppy video information about their face and home seems like wasted bandwidth to me. Edit: addendum, get a headset, transmitting voice clearly with some decent noise cancellation is really important. I buy…

Having done both for a long period of time, having the “face time” really makes a big difference for communication type meetings. However, it’s not as useful for instructional or co-working type meetings where you really only care about the screen sharing.

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#59

Post by dylan604 » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:24 PM UTC

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #53

thrower123 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't really get the point of keeping video open. I'm always either looking at emails, a shared desktop, an issue tracker, or some kind of document while we are on calls. Seeing people sip coffee and pick their nose doesn't really add anything except bandwidth.

If someone is presenting it's useful to be able to gauge how well it's going, whether people are paying attention, if they're bored, etc..

Then let that be a presenter's view. Don't make everyone suffer through it. When I'm in a room with people in a meeting, I'm focused on the presenter. I'm not looking at everyone in the room at the same time.

Re: Zoom fatigue is real

#60

Post by soylentcola » Thu, May 14, 2020, 4:28 PM UTC

Nasrudith wrote: post #44

Really I find the large face array more draining than the audio - you usually don't get a clear and in focus view of that many people.

Haven't messed with Zoom too much, but I find that in Webex and Hangouts, the default is to focus the main "camera" on whoever has been talking for the past few seconds. It doesn't engage immediately so there are no rapid cuts between feeds just because someone cleared their throat or clicked a mouse while someone was speaking.

Of course it isn't perfect. It depends on people taking turns to speak (as they should, but can't always do if latency causes two people to start talking at once). Still beats the "Brady Bunch" window I only see when I do social meetings with a handful of friends on Friday evenings.

With those it's less of an issue since we're often on the couch in front of the TV with a webcam mounted on top or in the kitchen making dinner with the laptop open on the table anyway.