Live data from Hacker News

Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

theregister.co.uk

101–110 of 184 posts

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#101

When we look at the kinds of things these surveillance powers are used for, it's a glimpse of how it's abused. Thanks to FOIA requests, we found that the Boston Regional Intelligence Center was using their surveillance capabilities to spy on Occupy Boston during the Boston Marathon that was bombed, despite the ostensible aim of the center being to coordinate local and federal intelligence capabilities and despite the…

> If we want to make the world safer, we should focus on making responsible and strategic use of the intelligence we have than to grant new powers.

Always look at the incentives. The Boston Bombing intelligence "failure" is not a failure of intelligence. We got exactly what the incentives were set up to deliver. The system works, it's just not spec'd out to deliver what people think it is.

A mostly law abiding protest group that dares loudly complain about the government "doing it wrong" is an actual threat to law enforcement because it is a threat to the status quo. The voters might listen to them. The voters might install politicians who make promises of "doing it right" which usually includes allocating resources on things other than law enforcement. Drug treatment instead of drug crime task forces for example. That's a real risk to law enforcement agencies and gets treated as such.

On the other hand you have two dudes with some bombs. Worst case they kill a couple hundred people and make the public hate them in the process. Sure that makes you look like incompetent fools but the public already thinks of you that way so you don't lose anything. No politician is going to get elected on a promise of turning your organization upside down because you failed to catch some lone wolves. Maybe you can even find a way to blame someone/something else and get some extra power out of it. Those guys were not a real risk to the organizations tasked with stopping people like them and were likewise ignored.

That said, as much as it pains me to defend the MA state police the failure mode of the status quo they have settled into is pretty benign. The false positive rate on terrorism is so high and they are so eager to LARP as combat troops that if they did thoroughly follow up on every tip they got they'd likely have a much higher body count than the real terrorists. Doing unethical things to maximize their incomes and minimize their work (the gripe most people have with the MA state police) is pretty harmless by comparison.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#102
post #50

Define 'your' browsing history. Where I live you can buy a SIM card with cash, load it with credit and surf on a 3G/4G network, without having to register the SIM or attach your legal name to it in any way. I can also encrypt my phone, turn on permanent incognito mode, disable Javascript, and have uBlock Origin running to stop trackers. Good luck trying to pin my legal name to a particular website visit. Then there's…

I remember listening to a podcast where some guy was describing how the FBI (I think?) had a map of the 5 most frequently contacted phone number and the average rate of contact for those numbers for all landline and cellphone users in the early 2000s.

They were able to de-anonymize burner phones by mapping what numbers they were contacting, who those numbers were contacting and who the 2nd hop numbers were contacting.

Given that this was the technology 2 decades ago, I’m going to guess that similar behavioral fingerprints have been collected for all sorts of data. I wonder if it’s possible to fingerprint someone from the frequency of the top 5 websites someone visits and the time at which they are most actively browsing a website.

Edit: I found the podcast from my notes. Episode 265 of the James Altucher Show

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#103
No one should accept the state's justifications on the basis of terrorism for expanding its surveillance powers. Terrorism from the middle east comes from US imperial intervention there, if they wanted to stop "terrorism" they would stop terrorizing the middle east. Instead, expansions of the police agency powers are probably aimed at surveiling political targets that have become disfavored.

The bait and switch the USG loves to use, and in fact all governments love to use, is to point to a (possibly nonexistent) external enemy and use that to scare the population into accepting ever increasing authoritarian measures domestically.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Terrorism has been removed of its meaning since 2001. Terrorism means using violence or threat of violence to influence social or political decisions. Not everything bad is terrorism. A mentally ill person going on a murder-suicide rampage after beijg ignored by a girl is not a terrorist. A person acting in their self-interest in a way that contributes to systemic racism or oppression is not a terrorist. Hunting or t…

> Terrorism means using violence or threat of violence to influence social or political decisions. So like the shooting of a black church by a white supremacist explicitly for the purposes of espousing white supremacy? > Hunting or threatening people of a certain race or gender or orientation or hobby to scare them and others away is terrorism. So like the lgbtq club shooting, or the black church, or the 1989 shootin…

But to stay on topic, reading this article is clearly also terrorism, since only a minority(+) of congress disagrees.

(+) “minority” has apparently been redefined to be 60-66% whenever the goal is to stop congress from doing something reprehensible.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#105
I don’t understand. Isn’t the surveillance program illegal? Wouldn’t this be passing a law that would require the government follow the law?

Serious question, I was under the impression this was equivalent to warrantless wire tapping, which was already illegal.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#106

So, this amendment lost by one vote, and Bernie Sanders didn't vote. Does anyone know what happened? I've understood him as having been against most of the Patriot Act since its inception.

Perhaps it's because Section 215 is already expired and Sanders doesn't plan to vote for its renewal, so he doesn't see a point in voting for an amendment that makes said renewal more likely to pass?

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#107
post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you have any simpler resources on how to do it? If it were simpler to run a relay on a provider that allows it, and it doesn’t cost much (say $10 a month) to give Tor users a little more speed, that’d be helpful. The last time I looked at the documentation, it seemed quite involved and complex (of course, I wouldn’t want the security of Tor users to be compromised due to any misconfiguration). If there were someth…

I use ovh (although the tor network is saturated with ovh) and https://tor-relay.co ; literally takes 5 mins after vm is provisioned. Here's a giant list of hosts you can look into - https://community.torproject.org/relay/community-resources/g... I spent maybe an hour researching based my in criteria. You can host just an exit (most helpful), or a couple of relays (aim for 100mbps+, and decent bandwidth). You can get…

Thanks so much for the links and information. I will take a look at it again. We do need many more people running relays around the world.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#108
post #34

I'm a bit impressed how close it was to passing.

Don't take that for actual closeness. In many votes including this one, Senators may want to vote against leadership but will only do so if permitted. So if, say, 5 more Democrats had insisted on voting yes to make the amendment pass, McConnell would have told 5 more Republicans that they were disallowed from voting against it, and the amendment would have failed by... one vote.

The dynamic here is that Republican politicians often want to present themselves to constituents as being against the police state or big government, but the party/party leadership wants to pass measures such as this. So the individual politicians are accommodated to the extent that they don't interfere with the party passing what it wants.

You see a similar dynamic in quite a lot of votes.

TL;DR: McConnell knows how to count.

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#109
post #60

I would be surprised if many of the common public believed that warrantless searches of anyone are reasonable, while exempting federal elected officials from the same law. Now's a good time to call you senator (if they voted against this) and tell them that they fucked up by weakening your rights and freedoms. Then, get a VPN or better use Tor as much as you can.

But political candidates are not exempted. That leaves a huge area for abuse.

They’re voting on an amendment to exempt candidates for federal office from warrantless surveillance. It is expected to pass.

That way, the executive branch can tamper with state and local elections with impunity.

The supreme court just heard oral arguments in a case where Trump’s lawyers argued he was allowed to shoot people for no reason in public. (Really. This is not hyperbole.)

Presumably the next step is to (perhaps selectively) cancel elections (or some ballots) because “emergency”, and then refusing to step down if the resulting impeachment somehow succeeds (which it won’t).

Re: Patriot Act amendment needing a warrant for browsing history fails

#110

When we look at the kinds of things these surveillance powers are used for, it's a glimpse of how it's abused. Thanks to FOIA requests, we found that the Boston Regional Intelligence Center was using their surveillance capabilities to spy on Occupy Boston during the Boston Marathon that was bombed, despite the ostensible aim of the center being to coordinate local and federal intelligence capabilities and despite the…

As new technologies emerge and proliferate, they'll inevitably be used by criminals to harm citizens, businesses, and the local community. I can tell you firsthand (at least for murderers in Chicago, where I work as a crime analyst), encryption definitely helps killers get away with murder (based on the number of incriminating texts I've seen in instances where, with legal authorization (ie a search warrant approved by a judge), it's been possible to access an unwilling suspect's phone).

I'm not arguing that we should get rid of encryption, (nor am I saying it's even possible to defeat encryption at scale, so it was probably a bad example to go with when call detail records would have been better, but I should really be working right now), rather, I'm saying we should let law enforcement keep up with the level of technology, but we should have strong auditing processes and don't allow for situations like the FISA/FISC situation where proceedings are nearly always literally one-sided (only prosecution, defense is necessarily excluded from the proceeding) [0].

New powers will be required to deal with new situations. The SARS-CoV-2 virus, for example, has killed more Chicagoans in the past 2 months than homicide has in the past 3 years, and that is also ravaging the economy as people are correctly afraid of going out in public. Currently most people are isolating because we don't have a more precise way of separating the infected from the uninfected, but China's digital contact tracing QR-code scheme provides a much more precise separator (and per an episode of This American Life [1] that I just listened to, it actually made at least the interviewee more comfortable being in public because they knew infected or risky people were separated out). If legislators implemented very tight controls over who could use the data (and how) and there was (sufficiently) transparent and rigorous auditing, we could save lives, jobs, and businesses. I know the public won't go for it because the public justifiably doesn't trust the government to prevent abuse of this system, but I would love to live in a world where we could develop and deploy technical solutions to major problems and be confident that the technical solution would not be abused.

[0] https://scholarlycommons.law.wlu.edu/wlulr/vol72/iss3/4/

[1] https://www.thisamericanlife.org/698/transcript

Post reply on HN