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Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

blogs.nvidia.com

51–60 of 347 posts

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#51
post #40
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Intel was forced to license to AMD for government contracts. There's a super-complex story there I won't get into. There were a few clone vendors aside from AMD. None were ever a serious threat, and AMD itself didn't become more than a bottom-feeder until after maybe 15 years. But their existence did drive a lot of adoption. And yes, I did oversimplify. MS-DOS, IBM not being able to prevent clones, and so on, all rea…

That's why Intel realized that fab technology was the true differentiator. The only way to outcompete in a sea of clones is to secure exclusive access to a valuable resource they can't. Intel with fabs. Dell with lean supply chains. The surviving hard drive and memory companies with scale. I think IBM and Sun show what happens when you try to fight a stand-up brawl in a commodity space.

>That's why Intel realized that fab technology was the true differentiator.

But now the situation is completely reversed. Intel has faced all kinds of problems, costs, and delays due ultimately to the fact that they made a bad choice on their chip architecture but were forced to make it work because they invested so much in the fab.

What TSMC is fabbing for nvidia is working out really well, and if it was not nvidia could walk away without being stuck with billions of dollars of fab facilities they have to own forever.

edit: reversed is the wrong choice of words. It IS all about the fab, but Intel could not/did not accept that maybe someone else had the key differentiator now.

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#52
post #23
post #16

Probably even more closed than ever. They tend to become more and more restrictive with every new hardware generation. I wonder where their promised open source announcement they preannounced before.

Yeah. That's been my general problem with adopting NVidia for anything. They make good hardware, but there's a lot of lock-in, and not a lot of transparency. That introduces business risk. I'm not in a position where I need GPGPU, but if there wasn't that risk, and generally there were mature, open standards, I'd definitely use it. The major breakpoint would be when libraries like Numpy do it natively, and better yet…

Have you heard about CuPy?

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#53
post #33

In my experience, Jensen Huang's keynotes are unprofessional in the best possible way. I remember thinking during an entire GTC presentation "Wait, this guy is the CEO?" He seemed like an excited engineer who happened to stumble onto stage.

> He seemed like an excited engineer Is this a bad thing? I personally avoid presentations made by CEO of big corporations as it’s usually a Bingo of all the trendy buzzwords that as in fine no meaning.

Yes and no.

When a kludged together demo fails and there's an awkward moment, sometimes a little more prep might be nice.

But on the other hand, I feel better about a company focused on doing actual work rather than polishing demos.

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#55
post #31
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The large majority of researchers and business getting into NVidia products doesn't seem to find it that relevant, rather what tools, GPU programming languages and hardware they are able to put their hands on.

It's irrelevant to researchers. Research operates on rapid cycles: prototype, publish, move on. It does impact businesses. It doesn't prevent adoption for e.g. deep learning, but I haven't seen e.g. GPU-based databases reach broad adoption, or many other places where MIMD/SIMD would reduce costs or improve performance. Using classical hardware is clearly cheaper than the business risk and engineering time of relying…

GPU based databases haven't reached broad adoption because sending things over the PCIe link is a huge waste of time if you can avoid it. Working around this with custom design like NVLink/NVSwitch do is ridiculously expensive (and why a DGX costs a gajillion dollars), and there is simply not enough volume to subsidize it. They are largely analytics focused, because the parallel hardware can obviously map onto primitives like sequential scan and filters relatively easily. Futhermore, data sizes are not small. Thus the architectures tend to emphasize things like in-memory (VRAM) workloads that get scaled horizontally via RDMA (or RoCE, whatever people are doing these days), which is expensive and limited. Major businesses (i.e. people with money, who nvidia are targeting) already pay for proprietary databases, regularly, every day. That's not the barrier. All of the actual true secret sauce is in the hardware design, and you can't replicate that. You're always at Nvidia's mercy to design solutions to their customers needs. (And frankly, they've done that pretty well, I think.)

Sure, you can pay almost $10,000 per Tesla V100 (which aren't going to become magically cheaper, all of a sudden), and buy 8x of them. That's a 256GB working set, for the price of like, $70k USD. It might make sense for some things. For everyone else? Pay $30,000 for a single server, run something like ClickHouse, and you'll have a better overall TCO for a vast majority of workloads. It'll saturate every NVMe drive and all the RAM (terabytes) you can give it, and will scale out too. It's got nothing to do with openness and everything to do with system architecture. You can replicate all of this with whatever AMD has and it won't make a single bit of difference in the market.

I don't like the fact Nvidia keeps their software closed either (and in fact it was a motivating reason for replacing my old GTX in my headless server with a Radeon Pro card recently), but the problems you're talking about are not ones of openness.

> If I type a list comprehension in Python, it would run at higher speed and lower power on a SIMD or MIMD platform.

I think you vastly underestimate the complexity of these platforms and how to extract performance from them, if you think it's as simple as your list comprehension going faster now and you hang up your coat and you're done. Sure, when you're experimenting, that 5x raw wall clock time improvement is nice, and you don't think about whether or not you could have done it with comparable hardware under a different cost profile (5x faster is good, but 5x longer wall clock than the GPU but 15x lower power is a winner). But when you're paying millions of dollars for these systems, it's not a matter of "how to make this thing faster", it's "how do I utilize the resources I have, so 85% of this $300,000 machine isn't sitting idle". This thinking is what drives the design of the overall system, and that's much more complicated.

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#56
post #23
post #16

Probably even more closed than ever. They tend to become more and more restrictive with every new hardware generation. I wonder where their promised open source announcement they preannounced before.

Yeah. That's been my general problem with adopting NVidia for anything. They make good hardware, but there's a lot of lock-in, and not a lot of transparency. That introduces business risk. I'm not in a position where I need GPGPU, but if there wasn't that risk, and generally there were mature, open standards, I'd definitely use it. The major breakpoint would be when libraries like Numpy do it natively, and better yet…

Jax is an implementation of numpy on GPU.

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#57
post #47
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's irrelevant to researchers. Research operates on rapid cycles: prototype, publish, move on. It does impact businesses. It doesn't prevent adoption for e.g. deep learning, but I haven't seen e.g. GPU-based databases reach broad adoption, or many other places where MIMD/SIMD would reduce costs or improve performance. Using classical hardware is clearly cheaper than the business risk and engineering time of relying…

Hypothetically, from an ISA perspective, why couldn't Intel and AMD extend x86-64 more fully with SIMD / MIMD instructions? (as in, way more fully than MMX / SSE / AVX) Naive question, because I literally don't know the link between CPU instruction stream and GPGPU instruction stream. But it seems like there would be an opportunity to seize the higher (open) ground at the ISA level, and then force Nvidia to implement…

[deleted]

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#58
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm curious: why exactly do you need double precision digits? Not dismissing, just wondering what kind of application needs it.

Physics simulations. There's a rule of thumb that to get an n-bit accurate result after a long chain of calculations, intermediate results should be stored with 2n bits. Often using the full dynamic range of a float is necessary because the magnitude of different physical phenomena varies so wildly. I guess people do store intermediate results in floats in order to take advantage of GPU acceleration. However, once yo…

After moving from theoretical high energy physics to data science I m really happy I don't have to care about numerical precision on my computations.

The problem is that numerical errors when solving partial differential equations not only propagate but increase in magnitude during the propagation. If you are not careful you will end up with a 100% wrong answer at the end of a big computation.

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#59
post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Physics simulations. There's a rule of thumb that to get an n-bit accurate result after a long chain of calculations, intermediate results should be stored with 2n bits. Often using the full dynamic range of a float is necessary because the magnitude of different physical phenomena varies so wildly. I guess people do store intermediate results in floats in order to take advantage of GPU acceleration. However, once yo…

I've always argued that if you are getting close to having to worry about underflow, overflow etc. then you have an ill-conditioned problem and just increasing the size of your intermediate results won't help you a huge amount because you need more precision from your inputs. There are very few fields where you need more than the 7 decimal digits afforded by floats. Maybe the only exceptions are in astrophysics.

That argument would be wrong. Double can be a big help, for example when performing solid modelling operations on triangle meshes. Best would be actually exact arithmetic, but it being often too slow, Double is often good enough, while Float isn't.

Re: Nvidia CEO Introduces Nvidia Ampere Architecture, Nvidia A100 GPU

#60
post #47
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's irrelevant to researchers. Research operates on rapid cycles: prototype, publish, move on. It does impact businesses. It doesn't prevent adoption for e.g. deep learning, but I haven't seen e.g. GPU-based databases reach broad adoption, or many other places where MIMD/SIMD would reduce costs or improve performance. Using classical hardware is clearly cheaper than the business risk and engineering time of relying…

Hypothetically, from an ISA perspective, why couldn't Intel and AMD extend x86-64 more fully with SIMD / MIMD instructions? (as in, way more fully than MMX / SSE / AVX) Naive question, because I literally don't know the link between CPU instruction stream and GPGPU instruction stream. But it seems like there would be an opportunity to seize the higher (open) ground at the ISA level, and then force Nvidia to implement…

> why couldn't Intel and AMD extend x86-64 more fully with SIMD / MIMD instructions

I think there is that latency vs bandwidth trade-off where CPU likes lower latency and GPU higher bandwidth, but you can't achieve the same with a single chip.

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