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Leviathan in Lockdown

lrb.co.uk

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Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#11

Post by TeMPOraL »

zzzeek wrote: post #7
motohagiography wrote: post #6

The emphasis of plague doctors in that cover is pretty consistent with the things a state will face. Plague has been an essential factor in all government since beginning of time. There even is biblical trilemma for rulers that is basically the option of three days of plauge, three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three years of famine. The answer is rip the band-aid off and accept the plague casualties becaus…

Things like vaccines and ICU units didn't exist in Biblical times so perhaps 2000 years of progress has had some effect on the calculus of such an issue.

Not really. Vaccines help you prevent an outbreak from reoccuring; it's unlikely one would be created in time to stop an ongoing one. ICUs help minimize causalties. Neither one is a qualitative change in terms of handling a sudden outbreak. We got better at handling pandemics, but the playbook is mostly still the same - identify and isolate infected, and wait it out.

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#12

Post by nanna »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #9

>> And, right in the middle of the frontispiece, there are two figures wandering the empty city. Their clothes identify them as plague doctors, with their characteristic beaked masks, containing herbs or sponges soaked in vinegar to filter the air. Alternatively, they could be two people with long, pointy hoods stylized to point backwards.

If you look at sharper prints of the frontispiece than the one LRB uses, they do look more like hoods or hennins than plague masks, in my opinion.

I took this photo of them from a 17C copy of Leviathan at the British Library: https://ibb.co/DGL4dJj

Edit: Not sure why the parent comment is being downvoted? They're making a completely legitimate observation.

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#13

Post by SpicyLemonZest »

phs318u wrote: post #3

“Whatever else government does, the trick it absolutely has to pull off, according to Hobbes, is to make us afraid of breaking the rules while ensuring that we have no real cause to panic about our survival.” I’d argue that some governments have a very tenuous grip on the above two levers. COVID-19 has merely brought that into stark relief. I think that those taking a gamble that the majority will be content to suffe…

In my family, it's the old folks who are most worried about the lockdown. I shouldn't imply I'm in favor of it, I'm pretty strongly opposed, but my and my parents' generation ultimately know we have good times to look forward to. My grandparents are starting to worry that, you know, am I signing up to do this for the rest of my life?

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#14

Post by DanBC »

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #9

>> And, right in the middle of the frontispiece, there are two figures wandering the empty city. Their clothes identify them as plague doctors, with their characteristic beaked masks, containing herbs or sponges soaked in vinegar to filter the air. Alternatively, they could be two people with long, pointy hoods stylized to point backwards.

> Alternatively, they could be two people with long, pointy hoods stylized to point backwards.

Do you have any examples of artwork from the 14th century showing people wearing long pointy hoods stylized to point backwards?

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#15

Post by Seibai »

motohagiography wrote: post #6

The emphasis of plague doctors in that cover is pretty consistent with the things a state will face. Plague has been an essential factor in all government since beginning of time. There even is biblical trilemma for rulers that is basically the option of three days of plauge, three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three years of famine. The answer is rip the band-aid off and accept the plague casualties becaus…

What continues to shock me about HN is how many people seem to think there's a choice between casualties and economic harm.

The consensus among economists is that not having a lockdown would be worse for the economy than having one: http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-cr...

The opportunity to avoid economic damage passed as soon as COVID-19 became pandemic. Ending lockdowns early will make economic harm worse.

This exact same debate played out with the 1918 Flu, and regions that took more stringent measures for longer came out better economically: https://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=3561560

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#16

Post by ThrowawayR2 »

Seibai wrote: post #15
motohagiography wrote: post #6

The emphasis of plague doctors in that cover is pretty consistent with the things a state will face. Plague has been an essential factor in all government since beginning of time. There even is biblical trilemma for rulers that is basically the option of three days of plauge, three months of fleeing from your enemies, or three years of famine. The answer is rip the band-aid off and accept the plague casualties becaus…

What continues to shock me about HN is how many people seem to think there's a choice between casualties and economic harm. The consensus among economists is that not having a lockdown would be worse for the economy than having one: http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-cr... The opportunity to avoid economic damage passed as soon as COVID-19 became pandemic. Ending lockdowns early will make econo…

> "What continues to shock me about HN is how many people seem to think there's a choice between casualties and economic harm."

That's a misrepresentation. Both sides understand that economic harm is guaranteed. The question is when the economic harm of quarantine-caused business collapses and job losses exceeds the economic harm of casualties. Personally, like most of HN, I'm fine with extending the quarantine but, being HNers, we can afford to weather the storm; the majority are not so fortunate. And even I don't think that the US can afford to have the quarantine last much longer than another month or two.

I don't think the 1918 pandemic is necessarily good guidance for that since households were more self-sufficient then.

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#17

Post by rsync »

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Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#18

Post by dragonwriter »

ThrowawayR2 wrote: post #16
Seibai wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What continues to shock me about HN is how many people seem to think there's a choice between casualties and economic harm. The consensus among economists is that not having a lockdown would be worse for the economy than having one: http://www.igmchicago.org/surveys/policy-for-the-covid-19-cr... The opportunity to avoid economic damage passed as soon as COVID-19 became pandemic. Ending lockdowns early will make econo…

> " What continues to shock me about HN is how many people seem to think there's a choice between casualties and economic harm. " That's a misrepresentation. Both sides understand that economic harm is guaranteed. The question is when the economic harm of quarantine-caused business collapses and job losses exceeds the economic harm of casualties. Personally, like most of HN, I'm fine with extending the quarantine but…

> Personally, like most of HN, I'm fine with extending the quarantine but, being HNers, we can afford to weather the storm; the majority are not so fortunate.

Polls show the vast majority of the population supports extending shelter-in-place, and (in polls where it gets broken out) that that support is stronger among the lower economic strata. Opposition, though weak everywhere, is stronger among people who worry about how their investment portfolio is doing. Some examples:

https://www.kff.org/global-health-policy/press-release/poll-...

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-election-poll/despite...

https://www.chcf.org/blog/covid-19-tracking-poll-75-californ...

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#19

Post by zzzeek »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #11
zzzeek wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Things like vaccines and ICU units didn't exist in Biblical times so perhaps 2000 years of progress has had some effect on the calculus of such an issue.

Not really. Vaccines help you prevent an outbreak from reoccuring; it's unlikely one would be created in time to stop an ongoing one. ICUs help minimize causalties. Neither one is a qualitative change in terms of handling a sudden outbreak. We got better at handling pandemics, but the playbook is mostly still the same - identify and isolate infected, and wait it out.

the point is we want the hospitals to stay available to the general public. this means reducing the speed of the disease's progress allows this resource to stay available.

Re: Leviathan in Lockdown

#20

Post by user_0x »

nanna wrote: post #12
YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #9

>> And, right in the middle of the frontispiece, there are two figures wandering the empty city. Their clothes identify them as plague doctors, with their characteristic beaked masks, containing herbs or sponges soaked in vinegar to filter the air. Alternatively, they could be two people with long, pointy hoods stylized to point backwards.

If you look at sharper prints of the frontispiece than the one LRB uses, they do look more like hoods or hennins than plague masks, in my opinion. I took this photo of them from a 17C copy of Leviathan at the British Library: https://ibb.co/DGL4dJj Edit: Not sure why the parent comment is being downvoted? They're making a completely legitimate observation.

on the other hand, there is something to be said for the decision to interpret the image in a way that makes it relevant to our times.
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