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The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

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Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But today I'm a full-stack developer in Denmark. Would you mind sharing more details about this? Were your recruited or did you seek out overseas employment? I'm Indian but in the US since a young age; I'll be finishing my CS education next year and would like to leave this country.

Europe is pretty welcoming. There is a huge shortage of software engineers (of acceptable quality) here.

Well it is also true that wage are lower than in the US. So if you are young without many families bonds makes a lot of sense to seek employment oversea.

If Europe started to pay better money, then there would not be such lack of engineers.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#312
post #100
post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Out of the 700+ in my graduating class of Computer Science, less than 70-80 are still associated with computers in some for or manner. I can back that up with my anecdotal stat as well, that number is rather generous, not even 70-80 would be doing it still. There were some which hated it and it showed. They were pressured into it and they were just struggling all around to develop any interest at all in the field.…

> I am skeptical about this. Unless you can actively demonstrate competence (select few) you are not going to be favoured against someone with real degrees in the pile of resumes. That's why I said, if you are willing to let go of the traditional path. If you have to compete against a pile of resume, you are near or on the traditional path. Employment doesn't necessarily mean you have to be working for a company.

Could you give an example?

Clearly, there are new paths. Streamer, Podcaster and so one. But nothing that couldn't employ masses.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#313
post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've seen this bias in myself. I interned with several guys from India during college. I was an undergrad, they were grad students, having gotten their undergrad in India. We all went to the same university in the US. They weren't "crappy" engineers, per se, they just seemed to not actually have an undergrad degree in CS. Obviously I never saw their transcripts, but we seemed to be working from very different knowled…

I have a similar story. I used to work with a guy from India, and he told me “If you ever meet an Indian in a position of power, they got there through nepotism and not by their own merit.” Hearing that was pretty shocking, not so much because it’s clearly untrue, but because he held that opinion of other Indian people. He did fall under the description you gave, though. He seemed to struggle with basic Arduino and R…

Which manifests itself with Indians in the West hiring other Indians exclusively.

There are just so many negatives with Indian migrants that they should be more heavily restricted from working in the West.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

well, so if requirements were easier back then you can't really say things got easier. The stack got harder. you used to be able to get by with asp.net / php and that's it. Yes, you would throw files into ftp and there weren't any stackoverflow or frameworks. But still, the amount of knowledge you needed to keep up was way less than what we have today. My point: 20 years ago you could learn php and make good money. N…

You can still do simple stuff, it's not hard: just don't use the complex garbage :) I wrote a web app the other day with vanilla Python, it doesn't do much (it's a tasks app for my wife and I), but it does it's job, and in one file even! It doesn't use fancy front end stuff, just HTML template strings and some links that send CRUD ops to the server, then that saves the data in a big text file. It uses CSS to make it…

We all do what our managers / tech leads / architects tell us to do in the end of the day. Even if you have a lot of say where you work, eventually you will join a company with an established stack over which you'll have little control. If you're going to do web development there's zero chance you can keep this up forever unless you're working for yourself. Don't get me wrong, I wish the industry would do more of what you're describing, unfortunately it's just not happening.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#315
post #2

"When a measure becomes a target, it ceases to be a good measure." Churning out engineers as fast as possible and pressuring everyone to become one despite lack of interest just guarantees you will churn out astronomical numbers of crappy engineers. And I hate to say it... but it possibly creates unintentional racial bias in interviewers because the sheer volume of crappy engineers being churned out from [Indian/Chin…

Something similar happened in the US where numbers of students in CS went up over time. However, academic fraud has not been as big of a problem as it is in India. An Indian friend of mine said that IIT is good but hardly anyone can get in and the caste system dictates admissions policies anyway so many people try to get engineering degrees from schools with lax standards. The professors are completely unqualified, a…

I'll mention that from experience. IIT is a mixed bag. I've seen some really good people, but a lot of them were just terrible at coding as well.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

IMO, developer and programmer are the same. Engineer implies a higher level of skill WRT establishing and following processes designed to minimize risk. A software engineer, like their mechanical or civil equivalents, has a strong sense of duty WRT building things that are useful, safe, reproducible, etc. No doubt the line is gray. But, your stereotypical web app developer (failing fast while chasing a unicorn) is no…

> All of this ignores the licensed engineer's opinion, which is often that none of us are engineers because we don't have to pass a licensing exam. And often don't even have to pass a particularly rigorous academic program.

Also, we're not putting our licenses/careers on the line by signing off on software releases. As someone with a degree in Mechanical Engineering (but not a licensed engineer) working as a developer, I think the key difference is the accountability and incentives.

Avionics software and some medical devices do have near-Engineering cultures and practices, but a lot of software would look much different if we had real Software Engineering. Half the IoT malware magnets sold wouldn't ship if someone had to put their professional license on the line with every firmware sign-off.

Not all software would need a practicing Engineer certifying that standardized releases, just like you probably don't need a structural engineer to sign off on your patio expansion or treehouse.

Steam boiler explosions very common in the U.S. (and around the world) until we started requiring licenses to design them with serious consequences for neglecting best practices and procedures. It's one thing to bet your company's reputation and move on to somewhere else if the company fails, but quite another to set aside the corporate veil and be personally responsible.

For a look at what an Engineering-like system would look like, a good friend lives in Vienna, Austria and went to church with Joseph Mangan. [0][1] The short version of the story is that airliner air pressure control valves have three positions: (1) closed, (2) slowly bleed pressure, and (3) wide open to equalize pressure on the ground and better ventilate the cabin. Older designs used separate motors for the two different open positions. Mangan was working for an Airbus subcontractor, writing the firmware for a valve that saved weight and shifted complexity from the mechanical design to firmware by using a single motor. From the closed position, it spun the motor one way to open the valve a small amount, and spun the other way to open the valve a large amount. If the firmware were to malfunction while closing the value, it could turn the motor too far and rapidly depressurize the cabin. In order for the subcontractor to ship the product, Mangan had to sign off that a whole bunch of testing and best practices had been followed. Best practices hadn't been followed, he refused to sign off, and his manager faked his signature. (In particular, one of the required standards was that the first thing the firmware does is initialize the processor's interrupt vector to point to actual interrupt handlers. This wasn't the case.) Mangan ended up stealing a bunch of internal documents and posting them online at great personal cost in order to force the company to follow procedures. In the end, after long court battles, Mangan continued to work on certification of the valve firmware, and he eventually signed off on it once it had really met all applicable standards and he was convinced it was safe.

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mangan

[1] https://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/2923861/Airbus-whistlebl...

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That said some of my favorite people to work with (smart, easy to work with) are Indian. It's really a shame that the issues affect perception of everybody. It's a good reminder to me not to judge a book by it's cover, metaphorically speaking. I don't even know why race or color would even matter when it comes to considering one's capability to do some engineering job. At the end of the day just work with whoever c…

Because humans are pattern matchers. We have to strive to eliminate or reduce conscience and subconscious biases to ensure fairness. I know intelligent and successful people who would never take financial advice from someone with a beard for example. Edit: maybe an interesting example. I grew up around smart woman and girls. From observation, I “knew” women were smarter than men. I was in college before I heard that…

All living things use pattern matching - not just humans - as a surviving mechanism. It allows fast decision making.

Which model do any of us prefer in most situations: one that allows us to be right more than 50% of times done in miliseconds, or one that takes hours/days/weeks (whatever) and allows 95% of good (or fair) decisions?

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Consultants, lawyers, physicians, engineers, architects, designers, board members... lots of occupations with high status and/or pay without managing people. The 'how many people' you manage metric is just a heuristic, and maybe believed by people stuck in the middle of business hierarchies. Agree on 'Staff' and 'Senior staff'... military terms that never caught on generally. Not sure why they have started being adop…

I'll go by them in order: > Consultants A term so generic as to be almost meaningless. It can apply to an Agile coach, an Ivy League fresh grad billed at $1200/hr by McKinsey et al, or a programmer with an LLC and some marketing skills. These all vary widely in prestige. > lawyers Ditto. No one is impressed by a poor ambulance chaser or public defender. Judges, senior partners at big law firms, senior corporate couns…

>> Consultants

> A term so generic as to be almost meaningless. It can apply to an Agile coach, an Ivy League fresh grad billed at $1200/hr by McKinsey et al, or a programmer with an LLC and some marketing skills. These all vary widely in prestige.

To add to your point, it is absolutely the case that in places like McKinsey et al., several key measures of the consultants as they make their way up the ladder are directly related to how many people they manage.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#319
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait... so in your mind there is a distinct difference between a developer, programmer, and engineer? Because in my mind, they are all the same. How are they different, in your mind?

Engineers are typically required to have a license, have agreed to some code of ethics, and typically will have a membership in a professional organization. Like mechanical engineers and the SME, or electronic engineers and the IEEE.

True in the US, not necessarily true elsewhere.

Re: The most prized degree in India became the most worthless

#320
90% of the Indian Software Engineers are from two states in India - Andhra Pradesh and Telangana. While 10% or so are good, the remaining are junk. They get into jobs through shady practices, through team work (one guy gets in to a company and works his way to get others inside, and they chuck every other guy out, including other Indian guys from other states). I know people who even edit PDFs and produces fake client letters to get visa extensions. Most of these guys can't even speak proper English. But their perseverance and tenacity to come to US, and stay here is like a parasite on a mammal. Doesn't leave the bite. When a couple of them gets into an apartment, they invade that place by inviting everyone who is from those two states. Never gives a penny as tip. Worst is when they speak in their local language in restrooms, aisles, between pens/cubicles.
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