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Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

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Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#131
post #80
post #74

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'd say it's very hard to find any violent revolutions that improved a society. The reign of terror in France may not have improved France, but it did scare the European aristocracy, and ended up indirectly giving a lot of political and economic rights to the general population. Aristocrats very quickly realized that they did not want a repeat of that performance in their home countries. The Soviet Union, especiall…

You are right about the US being scared shirtless about communism, though I'm not convinced labour rights etc were as a direct result. Also look at all the damage the US did to other societies in the name of preventing "red danger" - the repercussions of which are still being felt in some countries.

The burden of proof is on you, most institution of French social democracy where created in the thirty years following the soviet revolution; without knowing I think it's the same in the rest of western Europe.

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#132

The suggestion that governments can close the remote working gap is not very well thought out. A large percentage of low income work is service work that requires physical presence. You can’t make the typical burger joint remote friendly without automating all the jobs away.

There are two ways you can close the gap between low-income, in-person work, and high-income, remote work: 1. The straw man you're suggesting: get rid of remote work. This is obviously not universally possible. 2. Pay in-person workers more. Because you know, if someone is essential enough to die for their work, maybe they are also essential enough to be included in the American dream of owning their own home and car…

A few things: Addressing point 1, the commenter never said anything like that.

Addressing point 2, right now the US economy imperfectly applies wages to an individual worker based on the demand for their skills. If their skills become more scarce or they develop better skills their wages should increase. If we say pay them more without changing the demand or the skills they have who will pay them more? Where will the money come from?

The simple answer might be to pay the CEO less but their value is also set on Market rates for their skills and demand, so if a chain paid the CEO less they would leave and go somewhere were they got paid more. Then that chain would have to higher someone else for more than the reduced rate of the previous CEO.

I also like the idea of paying people at the bottom of the economy more, but the government shouldn't just mandate some people make more and other people make less. We must find a way to either change the skill level or demand for those employees.

Artificially changing demand for low skilled employees is a bit scary because it incentivizes investments in automation. I would be helpful if a demand increase plan lead to a technological innovation the reduced the need for any of those workers. In my opinion investing in the skills of low wage employees is the best way to solve income inequality.

I'm interested to hear your thoughts.

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'd say it's very hard to find any violent revolutions that improved a society. It's pretty much a long line of tragedies. I count throwing out a foreign oppressor, like the American revolution or the Czech "velvet revolution" as a separate category. Those can be good.

Vietnam gained independence from France, might not be much better but I would say colonialism in general follows this. Or would that fall under "violent revolutions that throwing out a foreign oppressor".

Yeah, I don't count sending the French home as the kind of revolution I talk about.

If the decades of war and communism that followed were an improvement can be debated, but it's a quite separate issue.

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#134
post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think that the groceries are going to continue to show up on shelves in a world where nobody has to work, reality is going to hand you a very nasty surprise. If we're going to give stuff to everybody, somebody has to make the stuff . Merely redistributing money isn't going to solve that problem.

i thought it was sarcasm, but apparently, based on downvotes, HN is full of left-leaning comrades.

It could have been sarcasm. In fact, I hope it was. And it wouldn't be the first sarcasm that I've missed today...

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#135
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Pay in-person workers more. Which in turn means whatever those workers are providing will cost more. In most of the jobs under discussion, labor costs are a large fraction of overall costs, so raising labor costs means making the overall good or service more expensive. And nobody wants to pay more--not even the workers themselves, who are also paying for similar services from other workers. You left out the actual…

> Which in turn means whatever those workers are providing will cost more. That's one possibility. Obviously it's one we should avoid. Yes, we have noticed the skulls[1]. Please give me the courtesy of not assuming you've noticed obvious things that I haven't. Another possibility, is we stop paying people at the top literally millions of times as much money as the people at the bottom. An easy way to do this would be…

> Obviously it's one we should avoid.

You can't. You don't get to dictate what something costs.

> we stop paying people at the top literally millions of times as much money as the people at the bottom

You can't do this either unless you own stock in the company and can vote on the compensation it pays.

> An easy way to do this would be to cap income of the top earners in a company at, say, 1,000 times income of their lowest-paid workers.

And watch all your innovators and wealth creators go away along with all the parasites.

PG nailed this years ago in his essay on inequality. He said there are two ways for someone to get rich: by making something people want (wealth creation and innovation), or by gaming the system. Any "fix" for inequality that attacks the first and second kind of person indiscriminately, as your proposed rule does (how do you know whether the top earner at a company is that way because he gamed the system, or because he is using the enormous leverage of productivity tools--like, oh, just to pick one at random, computer programming--to actually be that much better at making something people want?) will just impoverish your country: yes, people might be more equal, but only because they're now all equally poor.

> Neither of the solutions you propose work

I didn't propose either of them in isolation. I proposed both of them together.

> CEOs will just pat themselves on the back for increasing productivity, lay off the no-longer-needed workers, and pay themselves more. There's no incentive for them to pass on any of these profits to their workers.

There is if the workers aren't employees, which is what I am proposing. See below.

CEOs only have the ability to get away with what you describe because "workers" think of themselves as "workers"--they think "all I want is a fair day's pay for a fair day's work". And just by thinking that way, they give up all of their bargaining power. Basically, what they're asking is for someone else to take all of the business risk--what's a "fair day's pay for a fair day's work" if nobody wants to buy the product?--yet still want to share in the same upside. But upside and risk go together: if you want more upside, you need to take more risk. That's what entrepreneurs have to do. You can't have it both ways.

> I get the feeling that's not what you're actually proposing.

You're wrong. Something like a taxi driver starting his own company is exactly what I am proposing. But I am proposing it for all workers, not just taxi drivers. For example, under what I am proposing, there would be no such thing as an assembly line worker in an auto plant: every one of those workers would be an owner (or part owner, if a bunch of them got together) of a company that sold the service of assembly line labor.

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> Anyway technically the physical jobs can be done remotely if latency isn't a concern We all talk about robots, but I have yet to see ANY robot remotely capable of the simplest jobs. At my work, an exaust fan failed overnight. Replacing it is a simple task: a few screws and some basic wiring. Latency isn't the issue. There are no robots with the dexterity to even consider such a job. I'd be amazed if one exists tha…

What you describe is not a "simplest job", definitely not for a robot, but also for an unskilled labour. I see the way to handle this sort of situation is to embrace "whole node replacement" tactic. I suppose this is already happening in some cases. "Repair robots" is one possible way to accomplish that, but it's not the only way, and in most cases not the cheapest available way. For example, if a fan has failed in y…

Node replacement isn't generally a practical option with large machinery or commercial facilities. And even where it could be possible, robots won't be up to the job for many decades. Show me a robot that can extract a badly rusted bolt.

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#137

>> "Benefits not available to low-income workers" A more accurate statement would be "Benefits not available to low-income jobs " There are plenty of jobs that simply cannot be done remotely. The more physical the job, the less it can be done remotely. A meat packer at a meat packing plant cannot work from home. A construction worker cannot build houses from a desk. (I'd add nursing, but a large amount of those jobs…

"Pilots cannot pilot from home" ... Google 'drones'

"Surgeons can't cut" ... oh but they can, https://www.therobotreport.com/remote-surgery-via-robots-adv...

Builders can't build... but they can click "Print" https://www.businessinsider.com/3d-homes-that-take-24-hours-...

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#139
post #91
post #68

I'm afraid of these socialist trends and statements. Hopefully, there will not be any new "revolution" where 'low-income' will vote for some populist who will make everyone "equal". And by "everyone" they normally mean middle/upper middle class because ultra-wealthy people operate in a bit different world than the rest of people. AND: Can't low earners take those high-earners who work remotely (programmers, for examp…

The West will go full communism, and it will make life better for all of us - no more rent, work or paying for groceries and everything will be taken care of so we can be creative in our time

I can't tell if this is sarcasm or not!?

Re: Remote work can also be a source of socioeconomic inequality

#140
I have yet to hear the phrase "making city money while living in the country", but we should see an uptick in personal utopias as the 21st century workforce matures in this new era.

In the age of logistics, it is not inconceivable that manufacturing labor will also have the opportunity to have autonomous vehicles deliver the inventory needed to support the livelihood of residents such as garment workers and others with WFH options.

"Work on Demand" has probably been accelerated by decades and would be a more viable option than many of the UBI proposals floating around to reverse mass unemployment in the long-term.

All it takes is one IKEA set to start a chain reaction. Send it to worker 1 to assemble, worker 2 to disassemble and worker 3 to refurb/repackage and send it out again.

I say that in jest, but they could have the white collar, blue collar and t-shirt (creatives) workers all on a positive financial trajectory at the same time if they manage the next wave of innovation and any real or manufactured crises well.

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